Post feedback in this thread guys!
omg ... I love you guys :)
I just finished a 4 player Lost Temple. 2 terran 1 toss and me zerg.
1 Terran built 5 starports and vikings.
1 Terran just expanded like crazy putting supply depots and turrets everywhere.
1 of the Terrans killed the Toss pretty quick.
They did come at me with a decent force. I had my ramp blocked with ranged units and they just ran away.
Game only lasted long enough for 3 of my drones to deplete 2500gas. Not sure how long that takes.
Thank you so much,will try them later.
Keep up the good work! ;)
Quote from: starcrafter64 on March 01, 2010, 10:04:34 PM
I just finished a 4 player Lost Temple. 2 terran 1 toss and me zerg.
1 Terran built 5 starports and vikings.
1 Terran just expanded like crazy putting supply depots and turrets everywhere.
1 of the Terrans killed the Toss pretty quick.
They did come at me with a decent force. I had my ramp blocked with ranged units and they just ran away.
Game only lasted long enough for 3 of my drones to deplete 2500gas. Not sure how long that takes.
which is better and harder compared to v5.1??
Out of curiosity why is this release smaller than 5.1? even smaller than 4.0 infact. I am not certain it matters but I would figure more coding = larger file.
Well first I went 4FFA and I think they were attacking each other too much becuz by the time I attacked the one left standing I rolled him easily. I was worried this version wasn't that much better, maybe worse.
Then I tried 1v1 (ZvZ) for the first time. This thing is ridiculous! It wouldn't let me leave my base at all! I have never seen a 24/7 rush like this. I tried to build sunken colonies toward my natural expo to fend off the constant rushes and I made it, but eventually I think he crazily expanded (I couldn't see, I was stuck) and there were just too many units one wave and I lost.
He never once went air, not sure if that was intended.
But this thing is definitely IMPROVED! THANKS MAN!
Just finish TvT, i use reapers to harass ai and he got completely owned by me, i destroyed his cc in the early game, and i finish the game like 10 marines and maraders. can't really tell it's more difficult. got do more test.
Quote from: PreTenD on March 01, 2010, 10:24:37 PM
Out of curiosity why is this release smaller than 5.1? even smaller than 4.0 infact. I am not certain it matters but I would figure more coding = larger file.
I started from a fresh Base.sc2data file.
I think every time you package with mpqeditor it gets bigger :-/
Ah, Makes sense I guess. Starting fresh though, sounds like a lot of work lol.
can you guy put another link for no cheating AI.Because i got broken file download .I try alot but same .Thank you :)
Just played a PvT 1v1. and the protoss seem about the same. They first charge with their big mass of zealots/immortals/stalkers then the games over. they are pretty much easy pickings after that. But one thing i noticed in the v4 was when i first made BCs in a TVT. they countered with vikings and kept them just outa range of my BCs and they didnt get shot once. Pretty sweet ai on that part. better than anything else blizzard has come up with themselves previous. good work :D
I'm going to update this list whenever i notice something noteworthy:
- Just noticed in the TvP i had, they expanded to the high yield for the first time.
- Protoss AI dont use warpgates. which is why they are so easy after the first rush. This (for my situations) is definitely the reason the protoss is so easy to crush. they just get purely out produced.
- Protoss AI doesnt reuse old tier units. Once it gets high tier archons and carriers thats all it builds.
- Just tried this with all the races vs all the other races. you can just spam your t1 first unit the entire game and win. 2 hatchery/2queen ling rush. 4 warpgate zealot. and 4 reactor barracks marine. all easy mass no-brain wins. :| dono if that helps at all but it would be nice if it were smart enough to not allow you to win that easy.
Just played 3 games of PVT (me being protoss) just wiped the floor. My first time touching Protoss for awhile. Seem to concerned with pulling their forces back than actually building up a good enough force to beat me. A complete push over imo. Great work though!
I was playing ZvP quite a bit now and i have noticed that the protoss gets way to many pylons before they are needed witch slows them down a lot. They also need to use more then just zealot, stalker, immortal. One more thing is that they don't have a counter to muta really.
Thanks so much for your work, i have been waiting for this game for so many years =).
Could you post a complete change log? Or include it in a future release?
dude I feel noobish they are pwning my ass so fast... I get 5 lots out and they attack me with 6 rines 1 vik and 6 murders or w/e they called... i beat that round then 1 min latter they attacked with 20 vikings... was lame...
Very impressed so far, played several games against all AI but some observations:
Protoss:
AI sent an early zealot rush that took out my fast expand, I walled myself in my main and teched to carries\void rays. It then sent its usual zealot\stalker army which lost out to my 2 carriers + wall in. I sent my 5 carriers\rays into its bases as it was just building carriers, even though it had 3 bases to my 1 base. It did send a lone archon into my base as well a couple of times.
Zerg: I like the roaches\ling waves it keeps sending, hard to vs as zerg but when I was terran I was able to wall off and repair a single bunker to take them all out (they didn't bother with the scv's even though they were pretty much surrounding it) and were easy pickings after that.
Terran: Vsed them a couple times as protoss, they built a lot of helions\marines but I walled in and teched to colossi and the computer didn't really have an answer to it.
Not sure how much control you have, but it would be nice if it built counters from the information it gathers via scouting.
Played TvZ and TvP&T and lost both lol
In TvZ, wasn't expecting zerg to constantly harass/rush with lings, so they overwhelmed me as I had no defense.
in second game I went tanks/marauders/reapers and P/T both countered with air :l. good work guys!
I will move my v5.1 reports to this thread. Testing v5.5 reports in the morning.
great work, one question, is the cheating version harder? and if so, how much.
great job with the AI guys, but pls, make'em use some antiair! It's ridicilous how easy is to beat the AI with Mutta's. A couple of spine crawlers, 1 Queen and 5-6 zerglings (and a little bit of micro) were more than enough to keep my base long enough to get the first Mutta's out and from than on it was a massacre. Neigther Toss, nor Zerg makes any antiair (except the Stalkers, but they are to few to be a problem). I'm not verry sure what should I do agains the Terran if I'm Zerg, but any other match is an easy win.
The funny thing is, if I try to play only with ground units (without blonking my entrance) I'd be dead after the second wave xD So, balance it out a bit :)
Just played my first game of v5.5
1/1/1/1 - T/T/P/Z
Zerg cleared the terran and toss. The terran ran and slowly built its forces back up, I had one siege tank keeping the terran from building much and later I pulled it away for reinforcements..I looked back over and they had a huge base pumping out vikings. The zerg contently splashed on my walls I sent 6 Thors in at zerg as in the other AIs this was usually enough, however, they didn't even make it to any of the zerg bases. After that I seen the zerg had pretty much taken the whole map over except what the terrans were holding on to. They sent one last rush in and forced their way in and destroyed my main base. They came straight after my expansion that I had a planetary fortress exp. on. I put all my scvs on the fortress repairing and held off a wave or two..before I could get much built up they took it also.
Pros:
-1000x better. A lot more of a challenge.
-consistently attacked with nice size waves.
-They never gave up and continued to expand over the whole map.
-It seemed to me they noticed their waves weren't big enough. So they kept making them bigger and bigger till they got through.
Cons:
-They still retreat and do the whole pacing thing (I know you guys can't figure that one out)
-Still don't upgrade anything
-Still don't respond to nukes (Hit em 3 times with one.)
Quote from: SanctifiedDevil on March 02, 2010, 12:21:05 AM
Just played my first game of v5.5
1/1/1/1 - T/T/P/Z
Zerg cleared the terran and toss. The terran ran and slowly built its forces back up, I had one siege tank keeping the terran from building much and later I pulled it away for reinforcements..I looked back over and they had a huge base pumping out vikings. The zerg contently splashed on my walls I sent 6 Thors in at zerg as in the other AIs this was usually enough, however, they didn't even make it to any of the zerg bases. After that I seen the zerg had pretty much taken the whole map over except what the terrans were holding on to. They sent one last rush in and forced their way in and destroyed my main base. They came straight after my expansion that I had a planetary fortress exp. on. I put all my scvs on the fortress repairing and held off a wave or two..before I could get much built up they took it also.
Pros:
-1000x better. A lot more of a challenge.
-consistently attacked with nice size waves.
-They never gave up and continued to expand over the whole map.
-It seemed to me they noticed their waves weren't big enough. So they kept making them bigger and bigger till they got through.
Cons:
-They still retreat and do the whole pacing thing (I know you guys can't figure that one out)
-Still don't upgrade anything
-Still don't respond to nukes (Hit em 3 times with one.)
Funny cause Protoss I played against upgraded blink O_O
Terran I played upgraded siege mode
You prob mean researching weapons and stuff. Yeah, I'm sure they will in later versions.
Great progress so far!
The biggest problems that I've experienced are:
1) The AI is too easily exploitable.
-the AI will often pace back and forth, giving you free shots on them (perhaps due to your army being greater than theirs?)
-you can wall in and/or stand on a ledge and they'll be confused
-sometimes they'll just try and walk into your base without attacking (noticed it with Terran AI mainly)
-they should try to avoid attacking you at choke points unless they have a much bigger army
2) Due to (1), the AI is usually weak mid game because they lack attack units
-once you get them pacing back and forth, they do it pretty much the entire game and send only a few units at you at once
3) Needs more variety in terms of strategy.
-like others have stated, the AI could try making counter units.
-it would be nice if they used occasional tricks (dropping, hit and run VS your workers with air units/Reapers/etc.)
-the AI shouldn't necessarily expand if they can't keep up with your unit production early game
Thanks for the AI and keep up the great work!
I tested Ver.3/4/5/5.1 and Ver 5.5 with my standard consistency and to me it was the most fun out of them all, it actually surprise me I didnt think that this one was going to be that big of a difference cause it didn't look like it at the beginning.
A course their are a few bugs that needs to be iron out, like the ones that have been posted, but its definitely an improvement.
I play 4 game 2 1v1 and 2 1v1v1v1. lost the first 1v1 game. and won all the others, It wasn't really easy but it was fun.
I tested while playing turtle/tech because i wanted to see what they would do in the mid/end game.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 1v1 games were better. I wish someone would be able to get 1v3 actually working.
Big thanks to Starcrack.
~sorry if this post is hard to understand
Well I just played one quick match and all I have to say is wow. I really wasn't ready for that. Normally the computer will send one wave of 5-6 guys. I would handle that and be good to go from there. This time I was T against a Z computer. I had walled in and had 2 rines and a marauder before the first ling wave came in. I held if off but they did some damage to my buildings. Now I have been getting lazy due to the easier ai and only brought one scv per building for repair. Next thing I know I have another rush of lings coming. Really wasn't expecting that. Computer never rushed more than once before. Before I cleared out that wave I had another wave of lings and roaches coming at me. Due to me getting lazy from the other ai and this ai actually doing something I got over run. I lost. My first loss to an ai so far here in SC2. Really impressed with this. Keep up the great work.
Ty Trud finally a topic maintained by one of the authors. There was like 3-4 new topics every time when a new version of the AI came. I hope that this topic will contain all the discussions for the AI.
So it seems that leaving AI's for too long is a very bad idea....
LT TvZvPvP
one of the P dominated everyone else and came at me with over 7 carriers and archons etc.
proved to be a challenge but i ended up winning by combine fire with vikings BC and thors. one thing i noticed is that the high temps wont psy storm ^^ not that im complaining XD. AI also expanded thorough out most of the map. i think roughly 6 expansions. way better than 5.0 and earlier versions! keep up the good work ^^
OK I have played several 4-player FFA games on Kulas Ravine and Lost Temple and every time, I was terran... The protoss player invaded my main base early with zealots every game and I lifted off my command center (and my new command center just built) and took over the high-yield minerals and nearby expansion. The protoss player never attacked my base again after that and I was able to quickly rebuild and overwhelm him with the high-yield mineral income. This happened in 3 games.
Also when the AI player expands to high-yield it doesn't defend it any better than his own natural expansion, despite it being farther away and more valuable.
You should prioritize taking and keeping the high-yield mineral patches.
version 5.5 is good, i played 3 matches and lost them all, or it's because i suck
it's because you don't attack them very often,keep the presure up and you'll win.If you give it time to expand you're doomed
As 1337 said, ( at least in 5.1, I still haven't tried 5.5 ;O ) when AIs exp they don't use any defenses at all, actually.. so it's kind of an exploit to wait for an AI to expand, demolish it/kill all his workers and he's kind of doomed after that.. 8)
Hey, first post on this forum. Loving the site btw.
On-topic.. The AI is nice and all, but it doesn't really seem to give me too much of a challenge. I have a few issues and recommendations.
Generally, whenever you're attacking their base, they just keep gathering and w/e. I think when their base is under heavy attack, they should make some attempt for their workers to flee.
The Zerg's first wave attacked me, saw I had a nice defense up and fled, 10 seconds later, came back, fled, and it just went on like that for a while till I actually attacked back. He had a nice force and all, but his constant attempts were draining his forces slowly. I think they should retreat to their base, gather up a sizable force, and then attack.
When units are outnumbered/outpowered, they flee. But when I use Stalkers, they really have no chance of escaping. Maybe make them somehow determine if they can't flee successfully and have them at least try to damage my troops instead of wasting theirs.
Well, that's all I can think of for now.
Here's the replay I base my assumptions off: Download
(http://www.mediafire.com/?nznutmjivg2)
(Notice: Second game of StarCraft 2 melee, and I was terrible at the originals melee)
Quote from: Artanis186 on March 02, 2010, 02:24:41 AM
The AI is nice and all, but it doesn't really seem to give me too much of a challenge. I have a few issues and recommendations.
Thanks for the input. This won't help a lot but I will say that I've experience the same thing and it's hard to make it tougher than this. It's possible to modify the macro in the Zerg0.galaxy file and the micro in the Tactical*.galaxy files but it takes a lot of work. It may not be practically possible to make the AI much harder than this. Have you seen any other RTS AI that is much smarter?
The best thing in my opinion would be if we find a way to team up two AIs against us. That could challenge our APM a little.
Just played like 10 games under 5.5 no cheat, all with mixed results but overall very impressive. Early/Mid game is near flawless. Scouting and rushing at very normal 'human' intervals. Zerg seems most powerful early/mid, nice mix of lings/roaches. The back and forth moment actually seems to help with toss units and roaches, as they regen shield/hp. But that cpu movement glitch is still very exploitable (obviously) so I tried to play all my games not exploiting that.
Terran CPU
Seemed stuck on early/mid game units a bit too long, stayed with Marine/Marauder and then added tanks/viking to the mix, but seemed too much of a general of a mix and had no focus. Its rushes and movement glitch greatly hindered Terran, so never was under much of a threat. It did expand quite often, but not enough protection as Terran is a bit less mobile.
Zerg CPU
Incredible early/mid game. Lost once actually to non stop pressure of lings/roaches, which I held off until I noticed it also expanded twice while rushing. Eventually I was trapped and succumbed to the endless wave of zerg. I did not have much experience against late game Zerg.
Protoss CPU
Zealot rushes seem to be the theme early/mid game, which is always pretty formidable (unless you wall off). I played against toss 3 times and twice I was able to end it mid game by Micro, but the third game was one hell of one. I let them build-up and oh boy did they ever. Carriers in masse. They also expanded about 5 times so that was nice to see. Unfortunately it came down to Micro in each game, and that's where of course it's a bit glitchy.
Overall you have to applaud the Macro skill of the AI in this build. I had an absolute blast in the games I played and I look forward to what your upcoming builds have to offer. Thanks a million times over!
Quote from: limonel25 on March 02, 2010, 02:48:31 AM
But that cpu movement glitch is still very exploitable(obviously) so I tried to play all my games not exploiting that.
Yes you have to be a little easy on the AI and let it live for a while and expand so you can have some fun with it.
Quote from: limonel25 on March 02, 2010, 02:48:31 AM
Carriers in masse.
That happened to me too. I didn't scout it well so it took me a little by surprise and I had to fight hard to beat it. That was a fun game. Of course now that I know that the toss will go carriers in the late game it's less of challenge.
Hello, newbie here.
I got a question. After I downloaded v5.5, I was suddenly unable to play on this map: http://www.nibbits.com/sc2/maps/view/131551/ai-ver-2-ffa-1-player-3-crazy-computers-lt. (http://www.nibbits.com/sc2/maps/view/131551/ai-ver-2-ffa-1-player-3-crazy-computers-lt.) Is it not compatible with v5.5 or something? The other maps seem to work on the other hand.
Any ideas? Thanks.
What is the diff between v5.5 and cheating v5.5? which one do majority use? has anyone tried cheating v5.5 is it harder?
Quote from: 1337 on March 02, 2010, 01:40:38 AM
OK I have played several 4-player FFA games on Kulas Ravine and Lost Temple and every time, I was terran... The protoss player invaded my main base early with zealots every game and I lifted off my command center (and my new command center just built) and took over the high-yield minerals and nearby expansion. The protoss player never attacked my base again after that
Did this happen on Lost Temple too? It's a glitch in
Kulas Ravine that the AI never destroys any destructible rocks. But in Lost Temple it's strange that it wouldn't go to the high-yield patch if you relocate there.
I'm using version 5.5 AI.
I noticed a pattern in all the races. First all when they scout, it's very annoying having your units keep chasing it, but if you (Hold position) at your choke their scout will go back and forth like a spaz. After a while they will send their first wave and they will do the same thing if you're blocking the choke and they don't have range. When you mass enough and engage and battle with their forces they will hit and run, basically repeating the back and forth pattern. Pretty much playing cat mouse game.
I found that you if follow them back to their base you can either beat them or lose your forces in battle at their base. When I use protoss I always get sentinel and force field their retreat path and just annihilates them.
If you turtle, they will come at you with tier 3 units and if you're not ready you will lose.
Anyhoo, keep up the awesome work, they're already almost like SC1 normal AI and this is just from tweaking the easy AI from blizzard I assume. ;)
Quote from: Xero852 on March 01, 2010, 11:04:46 PM
Could you post a complete change log? Or include it in a future release?
The easiest way may be to check the svn change log here (https://www.assembla.com/code/sc2ai/subversion/changesets).
If you have TortoiseSVN you can download http://svn2.assembla.com/svn/sc2ai/trunk (http://svn2.assembla.com/svn/sc2ai/trunk) and can compare the latest version to any previous version with 'Show log' > right click on a revision > 'Compare with working copy'.
Update: No that didn't work because there was no read-only access for the svn. What you can do then is to manually do the same thing with 'diff -u TriggerLibsOld TriggerLibsNew > TriggerLibs.diff' in the diff file comparison utility.
Kay... so far jut watched 4 observer games, all with mixed races:
SO FAR... THX for the good job :D
BUT: 5.1 Zerg was damn easy -> 5.5 Zerg is the dominator, they keep the other ai so much under pressure, that terrans and toss cannot get along with it... i talk about the early game phase, Zerg rushed one player completely then attacked all the others... i think u pulled down toss because of theri quick build basement, but i think the early phase should be some kind of defence being build by terran sand toss cause zerglings could easyily be attacked with o bunker or photon cannon... so maybe while ZERG is doing a terrible rush in the early phase, toss and terran should think of its defence, while they are not allowed to build as much units as zergs do...
Quote from: JPeterson on March 02, 2010, 02:53:07 AM
Quote from: limonel25 on March 02, 2010, 02:48:31 AM
But that cpu movement glitch is still very exploitable(obviously) so I tried to play all my games not exploiting that.
Yes you have to be a little easy on the AI and let it live for a while and expand so you can have some fun with it.
Quote from: limonel25 on March 02, 2010, 02:48:31 AM
Carriers in masse.
That happened to me too. I didn't scout it well so it took me a little by surprise and I had to fight hard to beat it. That was a fun game. Of course now that I know that the toss will go carriers in the late game it's less of challenge.
I never scout against AI :D
Quote from: lovetoby on March 02, 2010, 03:18:19 AM
Kay... so far jut watched 4 observer games, all with mixed races:
SO FAR... THX for the good job :D
BUT: 5.1 Zerg was damn easy -> 5.5 Zerg is the dominator, they keep the other ai so much under pressure, that terrans and toss cannot get along with it... i talk about the early game phase, Zerg rushed one player completely then attacked all the others... i think u pulled down toss because of theri quick build basement, but i think the early phase should be some kind of defence being build by terran sand toss cause zerglings could easyily be attacked with o bunker or photon cannon... so maybe while ZERG is doing a terrible rush in the early phase, toss and terran should think of its defence, while they are not allowed to build as much units as zergs do...
yeah I agree,,so far as I seen in v5.5 zerg is always win vs other AI
Zerg is fine like it is now. I had a ZvZ incredibly close game, ty for providing so much fun. Terran and Toss are still weak against early/early-mid game harassment by Zerg.
What I hope to see in future versions:
- Better micro not just attack - flee - flee - flee -attack, loosing a big amount of units this way.
- Better solutions for dealing with walling, that includes clever use of Nydus Worm, Medivac, Warp gates.
- The AI going for workers or undefended expansions first.
- The AI using his "caster" units abilities.
Quote from: 2g4u on March 02, 2010, 03:48:46 AM
Zerg is fine like it is now. I had a ZvZ incredibly close game, ty for providing so much fun. Terran and Toss are still weak against early/early-mid game harassment by Zerg.
What I hope to see in future versions:
- Better micro not just attack - flee - flee - flee -attack, loosing a big amount of units this way.
- Better solutions for dealing with walling, that includes clever use of Nydus Worm, Medivac, Warp gates.
- The AI going for workers or undefended expansions first.
- The AI using his "caster" units abilities.
AI did micro a little against me with his stalkers+zeals, stalkers used blinks when I tried to retreat ^^
AI still lacks of detection tech a lot :S, that's the biggest flaw I currently see. Some probes sometimes bug in xel'naga watchtowers or near my sunken (reacts to sunken like to a unit that he needs to run from, then come back and run again, because sunken is in same place ^^). Everything else is pretty good, haven't lost against AI yet, you are doing a great work, keep it up, gl ^^.
it is scary when devs are trying so much into tweaking the AI to the point that...
we or i mean...the devs of the ai scripts are breeding a monster AI...wahahaha...
so far..i played all of the versions and DEVS I WANNA THANK YOU cause i have not been a good player before but now..im getting better with all those build orders from previous starcraft applied here and modifiying them...
and well 5.5 is the first ai that almost pushed me...but still..i have the feeling that you are still tweaking or improving the ai to a more monstrous way...
ANYWAY THANKS A LOT woooo MORE POWER TO YOU..: ) whoever you are idol
Oh, and also. You can see in my replay (http://www.mediafire.com/?nznutmjivg2) that the yellow zerg go stupid or something. They like, build a extractor way earlier than everyone else and get their ass kicked.
Where's the easy version? I'm a huge noob.
-but why does it say "Download links: IN ATTACHMENTS
StarCrack AI 5.5 (Non Cheating AI)
StarCrack AI 5.5 (Cheating AI)
StarCrack AI 5.5 (Easy Version) "
then down at the bottom of the post, there are only the first two, no "easy version"?
:(
Just finished a game against Terran playing as Zerg and Terran seemedrather weak. I didn't see a scout and I had a group of 12 lings going,went up, ripped up the mineral line, took out most of their base,retreated, gathered up some roaches and hydralisks, waited a bit,expanded, then launched another attack. They had more buildings up, butnot many units.
Here's the replay of it.
http://www.mediafire.com/?mm50jhjmwdz (http://www.mediafire.com/?mm50jhjmwdz)
Also, I am unsure of how to get replays to load up. I get an "unable to open map" error.
Quote from: Kiamberm on March 02, 2010, 04:39:41 AM
then down at the bottom of the post, there are only the first two, no "easy version"?
:(
Turd was actually being quite funny and made a copy of the cheat version and labeled it "easy." I think it was his way of getting back at the people who complain about how easy it is every time he comes out with a new version. I would have done the same thing if I spent all day coding only to hear whining.
Just play against the regular AI that comes with the beta if you're huge noob. Work your way up the versions...
Thanks so much for the great work. I'd all but given up on having worthwhile opinions on the game during beta... :P
One of the biggest problems has to be predictability. Both times the AI beat me it was because I didn't see his strat coming -- mass Carriers in 4FFA and mass zergling rush in 1v1. Unfortunately this is a one-trick wonder... once the cat's out of the bag, it's easy to analyze/beat.
I was wondering if it's possible to throw in some really edgy all-in sort of strats for the early/mid game... like, right now T seems to go mass M&M every game. What if that were only to happen 50% of the time, and the other 50% he'd play defensively, teching ASAP to mass Reapers OR mass Hellions? The uncertainty factor alone should make me play more cautiously.
Also, how about some serious defenses in general? I've yet to see a Planetary Fortress, and that could be a HUGE deterrent to my rushes against a comp's expand.
Just some food for thought. Thanks again.
Quote from: Mangala on March 02, 2010, 04:47:45 AM
Quote from: Kiamberm on March 02, 2010, 04:39:41 AM
then down at the bottom of the post, there are only the first two, no "easy version"?
:(
Turd was actually being quite funny and made a copy of the cheat version and labeled it "easy." I think it was his way of getting back at the people who complain about how easy it is every time he comes out with a new version. I would have done the same thing if I spent all day coding only to hear whining.
Just play against the regular AI that comes with the beta if you're huge noob. Work your way up the versions...
Oh, darn.. Alright, well where can I find the older versions? I'm having trouble finding them. :/
-also, how would I go about installing the different AI? Do I need to go in and delete the AI files I already have?
Wondering, if by any chance, we'll actually see some real "easier" AI?
Not talking about the old versions... thinking more about the recent versions and all the strategies they use (for variety), while, for example, lowering their APM or so to make them more forgiving on the player.
If this was fixed in 5.5 my bad (using 5.0 at the moment). When I beat the AI he sends his workers out and builds bases wherever he possibly can. If I destroy the ai's expo and then attack his main base, 30 seconds later he's already building the expansion again.
It's not really that threatening, just annoying as hell destroying the ai's main base and army, and then having to fly around the map picking off expansion after expansion.
If this was fixed too then my bad. But sometimes I destroy the AI's main force, and leave some forces in front of my expo to defend while I tech more and produce units. The ai has time to rebuild his army, but just sends stragglers at me a few at a time. So by the time I attack his base again, he's got little to defend with.
And the constant attack/retreat dance is annoying, someone said this couldn't be fixed though (unless it has in which case my bad again heh.)
Ok, I've read everything and it boils down to.
- Zerg are good, Terran are K, Toss is crap.
Awesome, because I didn't make wave changes to Toss and the ones I made to Terran were rushed. So we ARE in control of when the AI attacks.
- AI doesn't build defences in expands
I'll put some focus on this, I'm pretty sure I can do it easily.
- Attack/retreat crap.
I'll have a really good look into it, I think it's hardcoded but I'm sure we can bypass it eventually.
- Predictability
We're adding different builds. It's a hard process as a new build takes a good few hours to balance and test before it comes up to the same difficulty as others in the AI.
Thanks for the feedback.
EDIT: ^^ This will probably be the changelog for 5.6
EDIT 2: The cheating easy mode was a mistake. I've taken it down because I haven't had a chance to fix it. I wasn't messing with anybody :)
QuoteTurd was actually being quite funny and made a copy of the cheatversion and labeled it "easy." I think it was his way of getting backat the people who complain about how easy it is every time he comes outwith a new version. I would have done the same thing if I spent all daycoding only to hear whining.
lol.. you have a great imagination :D
The Protoss are the easiest, I'll agree. But something in them feels like (in terms of human-like) they're smarter. I hadn't payed TOO much attention on it, but the Probes in their base actually made a strike force on my units when they didn't have any normal units to attack with. I'll look more into this vs the other races.
Quote from: turdburgler on March 02, 2010, 05:39:24 AM
Ok, I've read everything and it boils down to.
- Zerg are good, Terran are K, Toss is crap.
Awesome, because I didn't make wave changes to Toss and the ones I made to Terran were rushed. So we ARE in control of when the AI attacks.
- AI doesn't build defences in expands
I'll put some focus on this, I'm pretty sure I can do it easily.
- Attack/retreat crap.
I'll have a really good look into it, I think it's hardcoded but I'm sure we can bypass it eventually.
- Predictability
We're adding different builds. It's a hard process as a new build takes a good few hours to balance and test before it comes up to the same difficulty as others in the AI.
Thanks for the feedback.
EDIT: ^^ This will probably be the changelog for 5.6
EDIT 2: The cheating easy mode was a mistake. I've taken it down because I haven't had a chance to fix it. I wasn't messing with anybody :)
and there are two more things
1) unit conter, example: when i make a reaper vs zerg/toss the game basicly over, cause i can hit and run with the reaper and kill all lings/zealots, problem here is neither toss or zerg switch to raged units (roaches/stalker) they just keep trying to defend with lings/zealots
other example: i play toss vs zerg, i tech fast to phoenix then gravity on queen and kill it with phoenix, after that snipe all overlords and the game is over (<5min) , because zerg dont build anti air buildigs
with this two examples i just want to say, that ai have to adapt to what opponent builds, i dont know how much you guys can change the way the ai works, but this is serious, you can quite in every matchup easy win when you use the right units
2) the macro mode of the Ai is a joke, after 7-8mins its like ai is afk
example: me zerg vs terran, i go fast expasion fast lair tech with lots of ling support , morphin to bomblings (no clue their real name) and crashing terrans force and then pumping from 2hatch + 2queens mass lings and gg (game last <7-8min) , because ai can not keep up with unit production
other example: me toss vs zerg ai, fast expansion with canons behind buildings so rouches can not hit canons, but canons can hit rouches :P (rouches shorter range attack) and teching to immortals zealots armee, then moving out and raping the zerg ai just with one attack (<10min)
thats two really important things for ai
anyway its great someone is doing this :)
i played a few games vs ai and basicly not a single game lasted over 10min , its a bit disapointing ;(, but i am probably the only one here who actually played on bnet sc2 (a friend of my friend has a key and so i was able to play overall about 12-13games^^)
@ ai creater, if you want to make good ai but dont want to make it unfair (i.e. carriers after 1min :P ) i can offer myself as tester, i would test it on macro level and on strategie level (where it has to adapt to my build or else it will be crashed)
though i have exam on thursday, so i am quite busy but i can spare 1hour at evening for this since i really like what you guys doing
and for all the people who would love to watch their replays or replays of other played versus ai, there is a simple solution:
1) move all ai maps into cache/download/
2) all replays are auto saved, when the maps are in cache/download folder, you will be able to watch the replays in the recent folder
example for win7:
1) C:\Users\"your user name"\AppData\Local\Blizzard Entertainment\Battle.net\Cache\Download
2) C:\Users\"your user name"\Documents\StarCraft II Beta\Replays\Recent
so if you want to show someone your replay, you will need to send him the map aswell
i recommend you to make a short cut to both folders, so you have fast access to them
enjoy watching replays versus ai ;D
allright gotta go and study now
Hi everyone,
I want to talk about the AI micro, I mean it is not as crap as we can guess.
For exemple, Toss flee every times you have a bigger army, but try to get back, take damages (terrible, terrible) and go back again. That's how the AI lose.
But when your army is smaller than the AI army, he uses capacity like blink or whatever. It means, that the micro, is already here, but with wrong settings...
I saw differents kind of situations: AI have a lot of basic units (zealots immortals...) but you have more...; they will flee.
They can have a few powerfull units like carriers, even if you have a huge army they will attack you withe the BCs or carriers...
My point is, the units are identified with values, each kind of units have a value more powerfull she is, higher is the value.
When the AI attack, he compare the value of his army to your. If you have bette value , he will run.
So, the micro AI problem, must be due to a simple conditional script...
Sorry for my crappy englis, I hope you understand what I mean....
Quote from: Bedervet on March 02, 2010, 06:42:28 AM
Hi everyone,
I want to talk about the AI micro, I mean it is not as crap as we can guess.
For exemple, Toss flee every times you have a bigger army, but try to get back, take damages (terrible, terrible) and go back again. That's how the AI lose.
But when your army is smaller than the AI army, he uses capacity like blink or whatever. It means, that the micro, is already here, but with wrong settings...
I saw differents kind of situations: AI have a lot of basic units (zealots immortals...) but you have more...; they will flee.
They can have a few powerfull units like carriers, even if you have a huge army they will attack you withe the BCs or carriers...
My point is, the units are identified with values, each kind of units have a value more powerfull she is, higher is the value.
When the AI attack, he compare the value of his army to your. If you have bette value , he will run.
So, the micro AI problem, must be due to a simple conditional script...
Sorry for my crappy englis, I hope you understand what I mean....
Ya, I also noticed the Stalkers blink away and attack. That's pretty cool.
(Off-topic) Does anyone else find it ironic that the 1 word most people misspell is English, specifically when they're apologizing at how it is not good.
Quote from: Artanis186 on March 02, 2010, 06:51:26 AM
Quote from: Bedervet on March 02, 2010, 06:42:28 AM
Hi everyone,
I want to talk about the AI micro, I mean it is not as crap as we can guess.
For exemple, Toss flee every times you have a bigger army, but try to get back, take damages (terrible, terrible) and go back again. That's how the AI lose.
But when your army is smaller than the AI army, he uses capacity like blink or whatever. It means, that the micro, is already here, but with wrong settings...
I saw differents kind of situations: AI have a lot of basic units (zealots immortals...) but you have more...; they will flee.
They can have a few powerfull units like carriers, even if you have a huge army they will attack you withe the BCs or carriers...
My point is, the units are identified with values, each kind of units have a value more powerfull she is, higher is the value.
When the AI attack, he compare the value of his army to your. If you have bette value , he will run.
So, the micro AI problem, must be due to a simple conditional script...
Sorry for my crappy englis, I hope you understand what I mean....
Ya, I also noticed the Stalkers blink away and attack. That's pretty cool.
(Off-topic) Does anyone else find it ironic that the 1 word most people misspell is English, specifically when they're apologizing at how it is not good.
Funny I thought it was the verb "misspell".
Anyway the problem is Stalkers will do that even though there is Siege Tank in Siege Mode in range. =_=
I hope v6.0 is better, as of right now v4 of goose's AI is far superior.
Off topic mode on// The main problem is not the spelling of words, even english people makes mistakes, my goal is that people understand what I say :)
//Off topic mode off
About blink and other capacity, I just want to notice that AI devs have already make progress.
I'am fed up with ppl complaining "Ai iz too weak, its not like playing vs humanz"
Sure but we have to remenber that SC1 AI was cheated, this one is more complexe to complete and we can be happy to play a better AI that the legit beta player are.
I think the current AI is quite ok, indeed (except for the archon/carrier in toss @ 5.1, havent tested 5.5 yet (tried, but game crashed, should re-download probably?)
The main thing if to increase diversity, as you said you'd do. I don't know about War3 AI, but I edited some SC1 AI in my youth, hehe. And there were so many random jumps to other scripts, so many possibilities. That's what made SC1 AI interesting (though weak, most of them).
You're giving up a lot of your time for this, good luck!
p.s. c code? thought they had another ai scripting language created, as in SC1. Nice for versatility.
Quote from: Bedervet on March 02, 2010, 07:21:07 AM
Off topic mode on// The main problem is not the spelling of words, even english people makes mistakes, my goal is that people understand what I say :)
//Off topic mode off
About blink and other capacity, I just want to notice that AI devs have already make progress.
I'am fed up with ppl complaining "Ai iz too weak, its not like playing vs humanz"
Sure but we have to remenber that SC1 AI was cheated, this one is more complexe to complete and we can be happy to play a better AI that the legit beta player are.
AIs aren't weak play goose's AI. It's pretty good (except for zerg, seems to be pretty weak for some reason).
I reckon AI will get harder and harder. Unlike wc3/sc1 there won't any opportunity for people to create a good AI (condition being that we can't code anything yet except for AI).
Quote from: Bedervet on March 02, 2010, 07:21:07 AMAnyway the problem is Stalkers will do that even though there is Siege Tank in Siege Mode in range. =_=
Heh, silly AI.
Quote from: Bedervet on March 02, 2010, 07:21:07 AMI hope v6.0 is better, as of right now v4 of goose's AI is far superior.
Gotta agree with that.
Quote from: Bedervet on March 02, 2010, 07:21:07 AMThe main problem is not the spelling of words, even english people makes mistakes, my goal is that people understand what I say :)
Ya, it wasn't only directed at you, I just found it ironic, considering most people that apologize for it misspell it. I understand you perfectly though, which isn't always common. ^.^
Quote from: turdburgler on March 02, 2010, 05:39:24 AM
- AI doesn't build defences in expands
I'll put some focus on this, I'm pretty sure I can do it easily.
How would you do that? I think all AISetStock for buildings goes in the main. And we can't tell it to post units at expansions. Is there a special function for expansion protection?
Besides it's not the optimal strategy to have any more expansion protection than a few turrets and a bunker possibly. The AI should ideally see that an attack on an expansion is impending and send units to intercept. Although it doesn't really do that, it only sends protection when the attack has already begun.
~Delete~
Still way too easy. And unlike 5.0, the AI in 5.5 doesn't evolve. I played TvT and they sent vikings the entire tech game. My seige tanks and turrets wern't even touched!
The AI should mass a bunch of units and Attack Move to my base, and pull back when 50% of the units have been destroyed to re-mass units.
Forget the micro back and forth dance with AI. It simply doesn't work and makes it way too easy to destroy the enemy slowly but surely.
Quote from: JPeterson on March 02, 2010, 08:31:57 AM
Quote from: turdburgler on March 02, 2010, 05:39:24 AM
- AI doesn't build defences in expands
I'll put some focus on this, I'm pretty sure I can do it easily.
How would you do that? I think all AISetStock for buildings goes in the main. And we can't tell it to post units at expansions. Is there a special function for expansion protection?
Besides it's not the optimal strategy to have any more expansion protection than a few turrets and a bunker possibly. The AI should ideally see that an attack on an expansion is impending and send units to intercept. Although it doesn't really do that, it only sends protection when the attack has already begun.
I think there's a function that allows you to specify where the building is to be built. I have no clue yet how to work this. Maybe using townOne, townTwo, etc.? Or using SetMainTown?
I am quite sure though that if you want the AI to expand, the numbers for minerals and gas are compared to the remaining minerals and gas of owned expos.
So, say the main has 12000 min, 5000 gas, if the AI has 1 expo, and you want it to expand 3rd, use the defaultexpand with say, 24000 min and 10000 gas. The ai will expand.
It doesn't expand though when a destructible rock is there. If you destroy it, the AI will expand there.
Zerg is expanding even if there are rocks on his way (but not when they are standing in place where a hatchery should be)
wow this is the greatest non cheating ai so far i have tried.. very good to practice with.. 8)
Quote from: bustya on March 02, 2010, 08:51:25 AM
Forget the micro back and forth dance with AI. It simply doesn't work and makes it way too easy to destroy the enemy slowly but surely.
You could try and turn it off partially or completely. If you turn on DEBUG_ATTACK_STATE in MeleeAI.galaxy you will see a flurry of messages during a battle for the attack/scared/retreat states. With the help of that you may be able to trace the code for it and change it.
Quote from: Kernel64 on March 02, 2010, 08:53:53 AM
I think there's a function that allows you to specify where the building is to be built. I have no clue yet how to work this. Maybe using townOne, townTwo, etc.? Or using SetMainTown?
That would be interesting if we can find that.
Quote from: Kernel64 on March 02, 2010, 08:53:53 AM
I am quite sure though that if you want the AI to expand, the numbers for minerals and gas are compared to the remaining minerals and gas of owned expos.
So, say the main has 12000 min, 5000 gas, if the AI has 1 expo, and you want it to expand 3rd, use the defaultexpand with say, 24000 min and 10000 gas. The ai will expand.
That's correct. You find the same explanation in the galaxy wiki here (http://galaxywiki.com/wiki/Talk:AIDefaultExpansion).
Quote from: GurU on March 02, 2010, 09:05:19 AM
Zerg is expanding even if there are rocks on his way (but not when they are standing in place where a hatchery should be)
Quote from: Kernel64 on March 02, 2010, 08:53:53 AM
It doesn't expand though when a destructible rock is there. If you destroy it, the AI will expand there.
There is a comment about it in the galaxy wiki here (http://galaxywiki.com/wiki/Talk:AIDefaultExpansion). "The AI will destroy destructible rocks that are in the way of the optimal hall placement. However, it will not as of r14093 destroy destructible rocks to reach an expansions, like in Kulas Ravine. "
JPeterson do you wanna take a look at getting the AI to build defences in his expansions? I'm not at home, but it will be awesome to get that done. There's a function that lets you choose where you build, you have to be careful, if you put in each loop he will just build millions, do a tech check in midgame for each of the races to see if they've got a fair amount of defences in main and expansions.
great job on the ai
however it needs to learn how to drop
just check this vid out http://w818.wrzuta.pl/film/7b366sdLH8H/2 (http://w818.wrzuta.pl/film/7b366sdLH8H/2) (there might be commercial before it plays, sorry bout that)
its 5.5 non-cheating ai
if i get my entrance well defended i might be sitting inside without any problems for as long as i wanted
z hits the cap limit and still no idea how to enter my base, it really needs some new ideas or at least stop wasting his units (he keeps coming and retreating after 1 or 2 units down)
if not better pathfinding, then drops would be great way to go imho
anyway, great work with the ai so far, keep it up
Quote from: turdburgler on March 02, 2010, 09:56:33 AM
There's a function that lets you choose where you build
Ok, Kernel64 mentioned that too. I'm not familiar with that though. If someone can help feel free to post a patch file for the svn.
Quote from: aggressivEn00b on March 02, 2010, 09:57:16 AM
however it needs to learn how to drop
That's probably because it hadn't researched overlord transport yet. Currently we have overlord transport early in the late game, here (https://www.assembla.com/code/sc2ai/subversion/nodes/trunk/Zerg0.galaxy?rev=35#ln195). We could consider placing it earlier in the game if that works better.
Macro of the AI is getting very good, however its micro is very bad. When our armies met each other, his was quite bigger (i had 4zealots, 4stalkers, 1sentry and he had 20 marines, 5 morothers), but he just begun walking around my army until i completely destroyed him (i lost no unit in this fight, he lost everything). Why is that?
Awesome news! During my game with a toss player I saw him upgrade his armor shields and attacks (AIR) by one! Oh and yes I noticed Protoss start to mass Archons+Carriers after awhile like most people have said..
y we need to major things changed right now
- micro is weird, sometimes they dont attack at all, most of the time they retreat even though they could win
- if you wall in, they will NEVER win, they don't seem to understand that they have to attack the wallin or drop in our base
The problem with the wall-in ability, or any heavy defenses for that matter, will almost always win any battle in any RTS I've ever played, and I've played almost all of them. It's because the AI (at least none I've seen to date), can't truly adapt and react according to their environment. Just in how putting pressure on a human opponent will help guarantee success, walling in and just waiting out the computer opponent is the way to go.
The only RTS games where I've noticed this doesn't work is when the AI uses units that outrange defensive units. This forces the player to push forward past their wall of defenses in order to win. Unfortunately, the AI here doesn't take advantage of that, when they should. For instance, a Zerg AI player should build some Brood Lords so they can wither down a terran defense with ease.
Just an idea.
First off all thank you guys for the constant updates and making things better <3.
I only tryed 5.5 in one game aparently if you rush them they are verry weak. They get no defence up . . .atleast the prot and mid game theyer defence is "random" and still not much of a challange and alot of duplicate and usless buildings.
Here is another thing I noticed: The AI NEVER protects it's expansions. Their expansions always consist of nothing other than the two gas buildings, and their command building. That's it. It's so easy to completely and utterly destroy a computer's economy by continual harassment of their unprotected expansions with small raiders like cloaked banshees, mutas, reapers, etc.
Quote from: JPeterson on March 02, 2010, 09:18:47 AM
Quote from: Kernel64 on March 02, 2010, 08:53:53 AM
I think there's a function that allows you to specify where the building is to be built. I have no clue yet how to work this. Maybe using townOne, townTwo, etc.? Or using SetMainTown?
That would be interesting if we can find that.
The function is
native void AIBuild (int player, int priority, int town, string aliasUnitType, int count, int flags);
AIBuild ( player, 1, c_townMain, c_PB_Gateway, 1, -1);
AIBuild ( player, 1, c_townOne, c_PB_Gateway, 1, -1);
Quote from: Gamewiz on March 02, 2010, 11:31:14 AM
Here is another thing I noticed: The AI NEVER protects it's expansions. Their expansions always consist of nothing other than the two gas buildings, and their command building. That's it. It's so easy to completely and utterly destroy a computer's economy by continual harassment of their unprotected expansions with small raiders like cloaked banshees, mutas, reapers, etc.
exactly, same thing crossed my mind
it might be ok if i couldnt keep up destroying his bases, but i can and undefended is piece of cake once i get his main force down
I'm still doing my analysis of v5.5 but for the most part everything I noticed about this version has already been mentioned. Build order timing is great now, expanding is appropriate, now we need to focus on bringing up AI micro, counters, and proper defense methods - with that done then we'll really have some challenging AI. Can't wait for the new versions.
On another note - I think it should be made clear by someone that Blizzard DID_NOT include the full list of AI functions and commands, as such it will take a considerably amount of time for the devs to rebuild the list from scratch. Because of this it will take considerably longer to eliminate some parts of AI behavior - such as the running back and forth we'v all seen. Fixing that will take much longer than forcing them AI to build X unit at X time, because Blizzard did not include a proper function for big AI army control.
To the Devs: I am going to be purchasing a SC2 Beta Key on e-bay in the next couple of weeks, and once I do I will promptly provide some Wireshark captures of logins + play - I can't give a definitive ETA as the Beta key (assuming I win the auction) will be a birthday gift.
-Elvish
I think toss are weak, try to study this game:
Starcraft II Artosis vs. Louder MLG King of the Beta Hill. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSkevYhCD88&feature=SeriesPlayList&p=222391E9E52F4406#)
Quote from: ElvishSolution on March 02, 2010, 12:05:58 PM
Very long happy post
-Elvish
Wow, thats great news, about the beta key, that is. Hopefully blizzard wont notice this and buy the key for 3000$ :)
Anyways, I have seen some pretty stupid gameplay from the toss, but you've probably seen most of it.
One TvP game from me:
-the toss started out pretty good, tried to scout me, but I had already built supply depots in the way.
-Later, he tried to scout me again, but I hadn't destroyed my depots, obviously.
-He attacked me, with ungathered forces, I only saw like two units.
-I countered with a few troops, got my ass whopped thanks to an immortal.
-I gathered a decent force and attacked him, won the battle with 3 siege tanks and a marauder left, and I had destroyed his natural.
-He attacked my siege tanks once, with about a zealot and a stalkers, I got confused, and built a force to defend the siege tanks.
-I attacked his main, and got surprised! I saw 1 high templar that didn't do shit and that high templar got owned.
-I won.
Quote from: lantay77 on March 02, 2010, 11:48:13 AM
Quote from: JPeterson on March 02, 2010, 09:18:47 AM
Quote from: Kernel64 on March 02, 2010, 08:53:53 AM
I think there's a function that allows you to specify where the building is to be built. I have no clue yet how to work this. Maybe using townOne, townTwo, etc.? Or using SetMainTown?
That would be interesting if we can find that.
The function is
native void AIBuild (int player, int priority, int town, string aliasUnitType, int count, int flags);
AIBuild ( player, 1, c_townMain, c_PB_Gateway, 1, -1);
AIBuild ( player, 1, c_townOne, c_PB_Gateway, 1, -1);
Exactly. Coupled with a tech check for each town to see if they've got stuff.
Working on this now actually.
Guys you will have to realise that some of the things that have came up will be because of the actual game itself not the AI, remember ITS STILL IN BETA things will not be fair and even.
Tried this out last night and it's definitely a noticeable improvement from v3/4
Good:
- I massed M/M w/ Terran, and went out mid game to attack. My sound was off, and before I realized, my base had gotten wiped out by a team of Stalker/Zealots even though I left behind two bunkers and 3 siege tanks. Definitely a bit harder than v3/4.
- Terran enemy will harass early/mid game with helions, which made the game more interesting as things progress.
- Not as much "single build" strategies and more of a mix of units. Earlier versions tend to have all Vikings, all Archons, etc. strategies.
Constructive Criticism:
- Playing metalopolis, when I'm on high ground, I can shoot at passing enemies with Stalkers and rather than coming up to attack me, they sort of just run back and forth underneath. I had 2-3 zealots @ the ramp, so it was definitely not a threat for the 9-10 roaches that I was shooting at. Reminds me of the behavior of enemies in SC1 when you turtle in with Supply Depots.
- If you don't attack early game, one AI usually will get taken out by another AI, which makes the game easier because by mid game, a second AI will usually lose as well. If you put up a solid defense and tech up, you can stay untouched until end game and just take out the last AI. It's been asked if melee 1v3 could be enabled versus 4 player FFA.
- Terrans are smart enough to scan for cloaked enemies when under attack, but Zerg/Toss are not smart enough to have detectors when roaming about. Was able to easily wipe out Zergs with DTs by waiting for them to leave their base in masses and then going in with Zeals to finish the base.
Big thanks to the StarCrack team for providing us with someone to play with... the sandbox was awesome, but definitely got old after an hr or two = )
One additional comment is that I feel like the StarCrack AI v5.5 as is already feels better than the SC1 one built by Blizz = p
First of all thank you so much for all your work. I've been dying to try out sc2 beta for a while and this gets me a chance to get familiar with the game.
Here's my experience with the latest AI 5.5. I notice that the AI (as zerg, protoss or terran) will launch several attacks early on, wave after wave (this has made me lose my first few games). But once I got more experience with the game I was able to beat back these attacks and proceed to easily finish the AI because it simply didn't generate the same amount of troops it did in the beginning.
I'll play a few more games to see if it repeats this pattern.
Quote from: undeadnightorc on March 02, 2010, 01:36:49 PM
First of all thank you so much for all your work. I've been dying to try out sc2 beta for a while and this gets me a chance to get familiar with the game.
Here's my experience with the latest AI 5.5. I notice that the AI (as zerg, protoss or terran) will launch several attacks early on, wave after wave (this has made me lose my first few games). But once I got more experience with the game I was able to beat back these attacks and proceed to easily finish the AI because it simply didn't generate the same amount of troops it did in the beginning.
I'll play a few more games to see if it repeats this pattern.
I've got the same experiences as well, maybe you should give it something like 20x minerals. Or you can give it unlimited resources and then limit its APM to 200 or 300. Or: find a way to make the AI always get 2x the income you (the player) are getting so it won't run dry in the mid-late game.
Still I gotta give you props for making this AI, it did kick my ass a couple of times, including one game where it went to late game and the AI busts out 12 carriers... = gg lol
Quote from: Crazed on March 02, 2010, 01:56:10 PM
Quote from: undeadnightorc on March 02, 2010, 01:36:49 PM
First of all thank you so much for all your work. I've been dying to try out sc2 beta for a while and this gets me a chance to get familiar with the game.
Here's my experience with the latest AI 5.5. I notice that the AI (as zerg, protoss or terran) will launch several attacks early on, wave after wave (this has made me lose my first few games). But once I got more experience with the game I was able to beat back these attacks and proceed to easily finish the AI because it simply didn't generate the same amount of troops it did in the beginning.
I'll play a few more games to see if it repeats this pattern.
I've got the same experiences as well, maybe you should give it something like 20x minerals. Or you can give it unlimited resources and then limit its APM to 200 or 300. Or: find a way to make the AI always get 2x the income you (the player) are getting so it won't run dry in the mid-late game.
Still I gotta give you props for making this AI, it did kick my ass a couple of times, including one game where it went to late game and the AI busts out 12 carriers... = gg lol
I don't think a lack of resources is the problem, the AI just seems to get a bit passive after it's first attack sometimes
Great job guys works really well almost like facing a real person cause they have to scout in order to see your base and were u are which is really cool anther thing is i like how they try and rush and run away if they lose 1-2 units when my army is bigger and then he pumps more units and trys again its really run but the only way to have a fun battle is to rush the ai cause end game hes weaker it seems i can just mass way more units then he can and theres notthing he can do about it and cool thing was i saw the Protoss ai upg hes armor and attack once but he just had alot of zealots no stalkers or anything just about 14 zealots and +1 to attack and armor it was really hard to handle but roaches can handle anything with good micro
good AI job cant wait for v6 keep it comming :P STARCRAFT 2 IS EVERYTHING I COULD WISH FOR... BLIZZARD I LOVE U ALREADY PRE-ORDER i say zerglings should be able to jump down cliffs .. but not climb up the cliff
Quote from: Swarmling on March 02, 2010, 03:10:16 PM
Great job guys works really well almost like facing a real person cause they have to scout in order to see your base and were u are which is really cool anther thing is i like how they try and rush and run away if they lose 1-2 units when my army is bigger and then he pumps more units and trys again its really run but the only way to have a fun battle is to rush the ai cause end game hes weaker it seems i can just mass way more units then he can and theres notthing he can do about it and cool thing was i saw the Protoss ai upg hes armor and attack once but he just had alot of zealots no stalkers or anything just about 14 zealots and +1 to attack and armor it was really hard to handle but roaches can handle anything with good micro
Periods are your friend. ;)
Can someone let me know if this problem has been fixed in version 5.5 yet. Sorry if this has already been answered.
QuoteThey go back and forth when encounter player, eventually waste so many units while falling back and suddenly go for attack. (Very serious problem, they waste units on going for attack and fall back then go attack and then fall back.)
Quote from: ScubaSteve3465 on March 02, 2010, 03:43:18 PM
Can someone let me know if this problem has been fixed in version 5.5 yet. Sorry if this has already been answered.
QuoteThey go back and forth when encounter player, eventually waste so many units while falling back and suddenly go for attack. (Very serious problem, they waste units on going for attack and fall back then go attack and then fall back.)
No, and it might not be able to be fixed. They are very limited in what they can work with, because Blizzard only gave them one version of AI to work with, and it was a dumbed down version of the very easy AI.
@ScubaSteve3465 - As stated below, Blizzard included only a very streamlined (in other words moronic) AI - this is for obvious reasons because this Beta is meant to test solely the online play, and to make it as balanced as possible for retail. Eventually we may see this fixed with cracked AI, but it will take a long time for the devs to build up the command lists that Blizzard has not included in the Beta release.
On AI:
First of all I'd like to say that v5.5 is leaps and bounds above v5.1 - that said the AI still has its problems, but progress is definitely being made.
Zerg:
Zerg AI has a massive (30 or so) Zergling attack at 6 minutes, and at 10-12 minutes it returns with as many Zerglings, and about 20 roaches in support. Roughly 15 minutes in it returns with 40 Zerglings, 25 Roaches, a handful of hydras, couple of infestors.
Mid to late game the Zerg AI really falls apart, it keeps pumping the same army it has all game, and once in a while I saw it add in a few Mutalisk/Ultralisks. Still no counters, but I understand that you guys have to rebuild to unit-state system from scratch, so I'll just sum up what the AI should do. As Terran I did a standard bunker/depot wall-in and then teched to Battlecruisers. The AI did not make any mutalisks or corrupters to counter my Cruisers. It also did not use Overlords to by-pass my wall-in. It would also send continual waves of roaches right at my wall-in to get eaten by tanks.
At about 15 minutes the Zerg AI should stop with Tier 1 all-together, it's army needs to start consisting of Hydralisks, Mutalisks, Corrupters/Brood Lords, and eventually Mutalisks - infestors can stay too. Zerg is still the best of the three, but overall it needs to ALWAYS play like Zerg - strength in numbers. Up until 15 minutes in the AI has this down perfectly, the area of focus next should be to improve its transition to late game, as its late is probably the worst of the three.
Terran:
Terran plays almost exactly the same as v5.1 the only difference is it stopped massing Helions, unfortunately it went a step further and doesn't make any at all anymore. I still saw tanks, and the AI is now using them in siege mode in battles.
Add Ravens - Ravens are very important for Terran - especially for defending expansions and harassing expansions. Thors! - Need to see the AI getting a few of these, massing them generally isn't a good idea however. Reapers - AI should get Reapers vs toss. Medevacs - these are very crucial to keeping terran troops alive. Helions - bring them back, just don't let the AI mass them. (Mid game should be helions/marauders/still some marines/medevacs, Banshees. Late should be missile-upgraded Ravens, Thors, Tanks, Battlecruisers, Vikings (both modes)).
Protoss:
Protoss AI still has an abysmal early game, I was going double gateway expansion to tech, and after 10 minutes I still had many more troops than it. Would really like to see that early rush/push that the Zerg and Terran AIs have. Stalkers were used, but not massed to a nearly sufficient degree.
I never saw any Immortals, they are really bread and butter of a protoss army in SC2, just like Reavers in BW. Collosi never came out, had the AI got these it probably would have beaten my zealot/stalker/immortal push. Late game the AI gets ONLY carriers and Archons, need to have some better variety here. Protoss definitely has the strongest late game, just bring their middle, but especially early game up and it could easily be the best of the 3.
Overall:
Protoss has the best late game. Zerg has the best early game. Terran at the moment seems best middle game. Terran has a decent early game, but doesn't push its advantage when it can easily win, instead waiting for its mid-game push. Battlecruisers late is pretty much the only option for Terrans, but it takes the AI far too long to get there (25 minutes before I saw a good number).
Keep it up! We'll have this AI perfected soon enough at the rate progress is going.
-Elvish
Hey, I would just like to start by saying thank you for the scripts. Now, is there any additional documentation for them anywhere? I was looking through them trying to understand everything but I couldn't find a few things (for example, where's the GG string? I want to change it to BM my friend :P ).
Also, I saw Dark Pylons were still inside of the tactical AI and the build AI of the Protoss. I don't know if those methods are ever initiated, but maybe a trigger to those may cause some delays in the AI.
Good so far!
Can anyone give me some tips? I'm using v3 AI because that's the easiest I could find, but I still get owned. I just can't seem to get units out as fast as the AI can. :/ you guys complain that the AI is to easy, and yet I can't even win 1 match against version 3
Can someone please give me some advice/tips?
Quote from: Kiamberm on March 02, 2010, 04:45:47 PM
Can anyone give me some tips? I'm using v3 AI because that's the easiest I could find, but I still get owned. I just can't seem to get units out as fast as the AI can. :/ you guys complain that the AI is to easy, and yet I can't even win 1 match against version 3
Can someone please give me some advice/tips?
have 10 workers getting minerals, have one working build 2 pop increasing buildings(overseer for zerg) then build a unit building building, train units and expand resources etc.
Quote from: Kiamberm on March 02, 2010, 04:45:47 PM
Can anyone give me some tips? I'm using v3 AI because that's the easiest I could find, but I still get owned. I just can't seem to get units out as fast as the AI can. :/ you guys complain that the AI is to easy, and yet I can't even win 1 match against version 3
Can someone please give me some advice/tips?
first you have to have a routine build order for every race
than you have to know which units are strong and weak against other units
dont wait to long for the first attack when you get an army like 5 zealots or some space marines and marauders try to attack the base...
Quote from: Kiamberm on March 02, 2010, 04:45:47 PM
Can anyone give me some tips? I'm using v3 AI because that's the easiest I could find, but I still get owned. I just can't seem to get units out as fast as the AI can. :/ you guys complain that the AI is to easy, and yet I can't even win 1 match against version 3
Can someone please give me some advice/tips?
Best tip i can give you is : Keep busy. I just played the 5.5 ai Protoss vs protoss. He was quite stupid... kept going back and forth between my cannons and a safe zone with arround 15 units untill most of them were distroyed. I followed the remaining units to his base with some sentries and stalkerswas pretty easy from there and i kept feeding my army with more sentries and stalkers. He had expanded to 3 diffrent areas but was still pretty weak since all his minerals were spent on expanding and not creating many units :(
Quote from: Happy-I-am on March 02, 2010, 04:49:39 PM
Quote from: Kiamberm on March 02, 2010, 04:45:47 PM
Can anyone give me some tips? I'm using v3 AI because that's the easiest I could find, but I still get owned. I just can't seem to get units out as fast as the AI can. :/ you guys complain that the AI is to easy, and yet I can't even win 1 match against version 3
Can someone please give me some advice/tips?
have 10 workers getting minerals, have one working build 2 pop increasing buildings(overseer for zerg) then build a unit building building, train units and expand resources etc.
10 workers? Sigh... Ok, go on TeamLiquid.net and watch the Day[9] daily. It's Tasteless's bro and he knows what he's talking about. Also watch some Artosis and David Kim vods, you'll know what to do.
The optimal worker count has been measured to be 24, but you should get more than that for maynarding purposes. Which means just as before, constant probes (but now with chrono).
Please make these AI MUCH harder. I'm only a D/D+ on ICCUP and I can take down these 1v3 no problem. I wonder what someone who isn't a noob could do to these AI...
If you still cannot win after reading up all of Liquipedia about general starcraft play and learning everything from Day[9] (and also playing ICCUP until your APM is at least 100 so you can actually build stuff...), then just 15nex. It should work on the computers quite easily. If you're too scared of that, try a 10/15 gate into 18 FE. I found that gives a safe expand with 3 zealots.
I have been lurking awhile taking advantage of everyones work...just wanted to say my thanks.
fwiw, for those of you saying the AI is way too easy because it runs back and fourth (i agree)....i would just suggest not blocking off your entrance. just try to win that way. i know that most people would never bother to do that with terran but if you want an easy and fun way to practice micro without ganking the AI, just don't block it off. we also don't know what the final release of this game is going to look like. maybe some ladder maps don't have ramps and/or small choke points? blocking entrance is a valid strat and definitely should be used for testing purposes, but atm it is like cheating, so if you are bored with what is available now, just don't block it off and enjoy a pretty good fight...
thanks again to all who are developing this AI...it has been fun to learn the game offline and try to practice what i have learned in some of these replays. can't wait to test myself against some real people
I dont like the new version, because protoss and terran only build air units in mid game, they prefer vikins and carrier -.- and they only build this units no matter what i have. After 2 games it goes boring cause you can defeat him easy with anti air units. also i think he expand too much the bot spend all his minerals in exe's and buildings :/. Pls fix the new version.
all in all good work guys! 8)
Ok my 10 cents(I am playing random since first day of maps with AI release, got 80-100 average APM depending on race and I am by no means pro Starcraft 1 player):
As protoss I only have a slight problems with the Zerg AI in the begging. After that it teachs, but it keeps spamming lower tier units, or it might just be that Zerg late game is not that powerful. Terran and Toss AIs are easy as soon as I get some more cannons for defense, all goes smooth and start harassing them early. Still I never lost to an AI as protoss.
As terran, NONE of it is challenging, may be I shouldn't wall off my entrance, but this is what 99% of Terran players do. All of the AIs, should start doing some counters of the walling, like using Medivacs, Nudys Worms, Mass Recall. Otherwise they are just wasting their army pushing back and forward while getting owned by a few siege tanks. That being said I lost some games not walling, but still they are easy if you keep harassing them early(don't let them expand/or try to kill the expands).
As Zerg I easily own the Protoss AI, vs Zerg was fun until I found out the proper build and against Terran I am having hard time(as I should with all other races VS all other AIs). The Marines/Mara pushes are devastating, add some siege tanks and Vikings landing in your base and I was like WOW this is fun. Terran keeps beating me most of time but that is how an AI with 200+ APM should be.
/2g4u Out
I unfortunately don't have time to read through everything that has already been said so this might already been said...
Anyways terran Ai dose not repair buildings, you can go in and damage a building to critical level, leave his base and it will burn to the ground.
AI for all races seem to have problems dealing with cloaked units. You can almost always walk into their main with Dark templars and kill off cc, nexus or hatch. I've seen that they will build some detectors later on but it's way to late in my opinion.
imo, Turdburgler has made a VERY good AI.
experienced SC players will obviously find them to be easy.. but people who are new to SC will find them tough to beat.
Right now, all we need is a 1v3 or 1v5 AI mode. That would be Paradise for me.
Im new to this forums so I do now know how to do a quote yet.
Someone told in the 5 page, something about watching replies vs IA, I tryed out this method and it doesnt work , that displays the message Unable to loads the map. I have a copy of it in the both folders "needed". If anyone got a clue about it I would be very thankful.
Quote from: Dream on March 02, 2010, 07:40:36 PM
Im new to this forums so I do now know how to do a quote yet.
Someone told in the 5 page, something about watching replies vs IA, I tryed out this method and it doesnt work , that displays the message Unable to loads the map. I have a copy of it in the both folders "needed". If anyone got a clue about it I would be very thankful.
you can not watch old replays, which was played before you put the maps in the right folder
and you need to start the games aswell from the right folder
it works fine for me
Version 5.5 is good, a great improvement from previous versions... for some reason the computers never give up... i destroy their base and they manage to build another command center/hatchery/nexus somewhere else and hwen i destroy that they are building another one or 2.... So i do like their spirit of never giving up..
Another thing is that in metropolis when i had to cannnos on the edge of my base just above the wall and a huge army at my second expansion just next to it (you have to go to the expansion in order to get to the first base) for those who havent played metropolis). Anyways i had a huge zerg army coming at me, looking at my army and running away but while that is happening my cannons are shooting on them and picking them off while they run back and forth and i would use blink with stalkers to take out their back of their army while their running away. However i think my only critisism is to fix this problem, i want a full on battle instead of picking off their army.
However great version thanks :)
Its good, but I do agree with what many of the above people said; it'll be hard to get it up to scratch to 1v1 a human player, without cheating, so I think a 2v1 or more is what we need. On the other hand it makes for good practice runs and what not, I think we can all hold off until SC2 actually is released. Im just usin this AI to test how quickly and efficiently I can get to some of the more obscure builds, as they happen to be my favorite ones from SC:BW ;)
Quote from: creamsoda on March 02, 2010, 07:07:07 PM
imo, Turdburgler has made a VERY good AI.
experienced SC players will obviously find them to be easy.. but people who are new to SC will find them tough to beat.
Right now, all we need is a 1v3 or 1v5 AI mode. That would be Paradise for me.
1 v 7 is enough.
Quote from: creamsoda on March 02, 2010, 07:07:07 PM
imo, Turdburgler has made a VERY good AI.
experienced SC players will obviously find them to be easy.. but people who are new to SC will find them tough to beat.
Right now, all we need is a 1v3 or 1v5 AI mode. That would be Paradise for me.
http://www.gamingnewslink.com/2010/02/28/tutorial-play-starcraft-2-beta-crack-with-ai-starcraft-2-beta-ai-maps/ (http://www.gamingnewslink.com/2010/02/28/tutorial-play-starcraft-2-beta-crack-with-ai-starcraft-2-beta-ai-maps/)
There are maps for 1v3 here. Lost Temple is a good one because you probably already know it. However, 1v3 is still too easy! One of the problems is that if the computers meet eachother in the battlefield they will attack eachother... anyways, as Protoss if you have good macro you can still 15nex and then just control the middle and with good storms you can just laugh as all three of their waves easily die, and just starve them by repeatedly destroying the nats.
1v5 please and make them ally eachother.
What I really love is that they do employ drops on maps such as Lost Temple. When I had a roach drop on the island expansion I was impressed by the AI.
And I'd like to say, don't be afraid to make it cheat. I know we cannot practice relative timings here (Day would be mad at the idea!) but the AI probably wouldn't get it perfect anyways so it doesn't matter. We just need macro/micro practice (and BO testing, more for strength than actual counters and timing pushes).
Its no good until AI know how to micro or they would lose every single battle
I found one of their problems. I when I destoryed their bases they had like 5 gateways and 1 robo and a stargate. T was like 3 rax and 2 fac. They need WAYYY more gateways! I was on 12 gateways. No wonder they can't macro... and they need to expand.
some ideas for you turd (btw, i only play 1v1):
- stronger early game builds (games usually end under 15 minutes for me)
- ability to identify choke points and hold
- if overwhelmed by opposition, a.i. should retreat and macro/tech up/defense up then after a little while, engage another assault (instead of retreating/attacking in and out of fog of war especially with scout i've noticed this. they won't come in the base but will keep trying then backing off when they see my units over and over again)
- marginal cheating should be used for now
- ability to counter our tech choices (or push in base if they see us teching (high tier units early))
will think of more, but for now, great effort turd.
btw starcrack team, if u guys need any sort of help other than actual coding/feedback, let us know.
Quote from: rackdude on March 02, 2010, 05:05:23 PM
Quote from: Happy-I-am on March 02, 2010, 04:49:39 PM
Quote from: Kiamberm on March 02, 2010, 04:45:47 PM
Can anyone give me some tips? I'm using v3 AI because that's the easiest I could find, but I still get owned. I just can't seem to get units out as fast as the AI can. :/ you guys complain that the AI is to easy, and yet I can't even win 1 match against version 3
Can someone please give me some advice/tips?
have 10 workers getting minerals, have one working build 2 pop increasing buildings(overseer for zerg) then build a unit building building, train units and expand resources etc.
10 workers? Sigh... Ok, go on TeamLiquid.net and watch the Day[9] daily. It's Tasteless's bro and he knows what he's talking about. Also watch some Artosis and David Kim vods, you'll know what to do.
The optimal worker count has been measured to be 24, but you should get more than that for maynarding purposes. Which means just as before, constant probes (but now with chrono).
Please make these AI MUCH harder. I'm only a D/D+ on ICCUP and I can take down these 1v3 no problem. I wonder what someone who isn't a noob could do to these AI...
If you still cannot win after reading up all of Liquipedia about general starcraft play and learning everything from Day[9] (and also playing ICCUP until your APM is at least 100 so you can actually build stuff...), then just 15nex. It should work on the computers quite easily. If you're too scared of that, try a 10/15 gate into 18 FE. I found that gives a safe expand with 3 zealots.
I agree, I'm far from a pro but I dominate this AI in short order, if I actually try to win I end a 1v3 in about 12 minutes. The rule of thumb I've always used is Vespene - FOUR workers, if you watch closely a fresh worker waits half a second before going inside, and therefore a probe is always en-route with 8 gas. Minerals, I've always made 2 workers per mineral patch, plus an extra 5. Which with 9 patches (the standard amount) is 23, so the 24 optimal number mathematically makes sense.
Another tip, make sure you are always about 20 pop ahead of what you need, because you'll eat it up quick.
-Elvish
Ai is really good almost like faceing a real person but the lack counters and micro kindof and they also lack on what to build ive seen protoss build a expo and copy the same builds that he has at hes first base and builds it in hes 2nd bases first base has forge gateway and core and 3 pylons and now he builds the same thing in hes 2nd base 1x gateway 1x forge and 1x core and 3 pylons why would u need 2x core and 2x forges..lol unless your going to upg attack which they only do somtimes seen them rush 1+ attack on zealots before
maybe try to get the AI to make more units then normal might help alot cause if i do a 6 pool like use to do in Broodwar the AI cant handle it i would have 4 lings before 1x gateway/rax/pool is built and just pwn the ai 6 pool is really good in starcraft 2 i think maybe not vs a real person cause he would get workers to kill my 4 ling rush but then again more were on the way
:( i wish i had a better PC everything is turn on verylow or turn off cause my laptop cant handle it wish i could see the game at full power but i think its fine the way it is..lol red smoke when people die...lol god i need a new PC
So does it look like v6.0 will be out soon? I am looking forward to it. Loving what we are getting so far but would love an even smarter AI. This is great for my macro practice though.
QuoteThere are maps for 1v3 here. Lost Temple is a good one because youprobably already know it. However, 1v3 is still too easy! One of theproblems is that if the computers meet eachother in the battlefieldthey will attack eachother...
then that's not 1v3.. that's still FFA... the map is just mislabeled.
Quote from: rackdude on March 02, 2010, 05:05:23 PM
Quote from: Happy-I-am on March 02, 2010, 04:49:39 PM
Quote from: Kiamberm on March 02, 2010, 04:45:47 PM
Can anyone give me some tips? I'm using v3 AI because that's the easiest I could find, but I still get owned. I just can't seem to get units out as fast as the AI can. :/ you guys complain that the AI is to easy, and yet I can't even win 1 match against version 3
Can someone please give me some advice/tips?
have 10 workers getting minerals, have one working build 2 pop increasing buildings(overseer for zerg) then build a unit building building, train units and expand resources etc.
10 workers? Sigh... Ok, go on TeamLiquid.net and watch the Day[9] daily. It's Tasteless's bro and he knows what he's talking about. Also watch some Artosis and David Kim vods, you'll know what to do.
The optimal worker count has been measured to be 24, but you should get more than that for maynarding purposes. Which means just as before, constant probes (but now with chrono).
Please make these AI MUCH harder. I'm only a D/D+ on ICCUP and I can take down these 1v3 no problem. I wonder what someone who isn't a noob could do to these AI...
If you still cannot win after reading up all of Liquipedia about general starcraft play and learning everything from Day[9] (and also playing ICCUP until your APM is at least 100 so you can actually build stuff...), then just 15nex. It should work on the computers quite easily. If you're too scared of that, try a 10/15 gate into 18 FE. I found that gives a safe expand with 3 zealots.
Stop being a dick about it, you sucked in the beginning too obviously. And AI commands are limited in beta, they are still working on it and its early phase so no reason to say I WANT HARDER I WANT HARDER, it just sounds gay.
Just found something that was a pleasant surprise; My mutas encountered a small group of stalkers and Id focus fire on them, and whenever theyd hit low health theyd blink away. Pretty basic and yet fairly useful micro since they can blink almost twice as far as the muta's radius
Been playing around some more, and walls definitely destroy AIs. They just don't know how to deal with them.
It might be too early to tell, but does it look like this is potentially solveable, given enough time and manpower? I can't imagine what sort of "IF" statement a blocked choke could fulfill, so as to be identified... but I sure hope it's possible!
Maybe it'll be at least partially fixed as soon as (/if) the retreat bug is out of the way. They'll still be slaughtered en masse, but at least they might seriously attempt to take the wall down in the meantime.
Wanna challenge? Play cheating 5.5 it's something at totally new level, imagine you destroy most of their probes and both nexuses, you return after 2 minutes they are back, but with flleet of carriers :D
Quote from: koolitseric on March 03, 2010, 12:39:58 AM
Quote from: rackdude on March 02, 2010, 05:05:23 PM
Quote from: Happy-I-am on March 02, 2010, 04:49:39 PM
Quote from: Kiamberm on March 02, 2010, 04:45:47 PM
Can anyone give me some tips? I'm using v3 AI because that's the easiest I could find, but I still get owned. I just can't seem to get units out as fast as the AI can. :/ you guys complain that the AI is to easy, and yet I can't even win 1 match against version 3
Can someone please give me some advice/tips?
have 10 workers getting minerals, have one working build 2 pop increasing buildings(overseer for zerg) then build a unit building building, train units and expand resources etc.
10 workers? Sigh... Ok, go on TeamLiquid.net and watch the Day[9] daily. It's Tasteless's bro and he knows what he's talking about. Also watch some Artosis and David Kim vods, you'll know what to do.
The optimal worker count has been measured to be 24, but you should get more than that for maynarding purposes. Which means just as before, constant probes (but now with chrono).
Please make these AI MUCH harder. I'm only a D/D+ on ICCUP and I can take down these 1v3 no problem. I wonder what someone who isn't a noob could do to these AI...
If you still cannot win after reading up all of Liquipedia about general starcraft play and learning everything from Day[9] (and also playing ICCUP until your APM is at least 100 so you can actually build stuff...), then just 15nex. It should work on the computers quite easily. If you're too scared of that, try a 10/15 gate into 18 FE. I found that gives a safe expand with 3 zealots.
Stop being a dick about it, you sucked in the beginning too obviously. And AI commands are limited in beta, they are still working on it and its early phase so no reason to say I WANT HARDER I WANT HARDER, it just sounds gay.
I know I sucked and I know I still suck. However, I don't see how I'm being a dick about it. I'm saying oh, this is easy, and if it isn't, here are some places where you can learn how to play much better. Be thankful I gave you the resources that were given to me (when my team leader showed me liquipedia I basically memorized all those BOs in a week!).
I mentioned that, I'm a 120 APM D/D+ noob on ICCUP. However, these AIs still don't do anything and the most fun you can make of it is just camp the middle in a 3v1 to simulate a 3v1 instead of an FFA. I know the AI commands are primitive right now, but they can at least make some triggers to make it spawn extra units or something. I don't care if it cheats, I just want some macro practice.
Another thing that can help out is have them spawn some DTs over the map. It will help put detection into your builds (or you can just complain about it like Artosis :P).
Still, the AI needs more gateways. I believe what the Nony and the likes have been up to is 3 gates into warps into expo and then 7+ depending on your macro. AI is far behind there. It also needs to expand MUCH quicker. It needs to do something more strategic like set down the expo when the wave leaves the base, or if it's a third make it in the path.
Also, I noticed how the counter system works, and just based off of units won't do much. In the future (far future, this would be tough to implement because you'd have to redo a lot of the counter structure), it should be based off of builds. Seeing zealot when it's 10/15 is much different than 10/12 (or proxy 10/10 or however people proxy in this).
Overall, it's still entertaining... especially to watch them move out of the way of your nukes :P. Man, 5 ghost nuking is just too fun.
In this replay: http://uploadinnngggg.hit.bg/ErrorAI.rar (http://uploadinnngggg.hit.bg/ErrorAI.rar)
You can see at around 6:50 an error with the AI, you can see a system massage, i dunno what that means. Note: this is not me playing ;-)
And for the prottoss with the Void Ray(yellow), why did he had only one assimilator? And why did he build just one void ray... this seems stupid to me. if he is going to build void rays, he should build more and he will need gas.
Im amazed by this AI but even the noncheating one seems to cheat. :'(
I mean i played on blistering sands a PvP and got raped by so many carriers.
When i played ZvT, the terran was terrible. It only made some vikings and thats about it. He didnt't stand a chance even though he killed a serious ammount of overlords lol. :D
When i played TVT, i got raped again becouse he came with more vikings than my SCV count lol, and thats in the early rush.
Protoss is the best one yet . Usualy when i get Terrans and Zergs they pown each others so they leave the rest to me. If i don't attack the PT before he gets mass-carriers I am pretty much screwed.
Does anyone know if the AI has access to a local database? I have been involved with the google tron ai, plus other ai competitions and I am willing to help implement a few ai learning techniques. I know windows has a sqllite binary, and there are api's for sqlite access in all languages.
Plus, it would be interesting to allow players here to 'submit' the learning database so that the AI can learn and adapt.
Quote from: Sniperleader on March 01, 2010, 11:02:26 PM
Just played 3 games of PVT (me being protoss) just wiped the floor. My first time touching Protoss for awhile. Seem to concerned with pulling their forces back than actually building up a good enough force to beat me. A complete push over imo. Great work though!
I would agree that the AI pull back too often. I am trying to find the AI that makes computers pull back, and stop them from it.
I tested this map on a FFA 4 player map, the one where I was just an observer watching 4 computers. And it was two terrans and two zerg. One terran had the problem that it seemed to expand too much, and did not really build much army or make any attacks. The zerg build some armies, but the first rush of zerglings pulled back right after getting to the marines. Making its loss a complete waste.
Another problem seems to be that the AI does not upgrade. I saw one Terran player do the tier 1 armor for aircrafts. That was the only attack / armor upgrade I have seen an AI do. Is it intentionally not doing the other upgrades?
AI v5.5 attack point is Command Center/Hatchery/Nexus after it destroy them attacks stops... And it start with closest base...
Suggestions:
- If AI macro game is for heavy units it's better to make little attacks to far away points of the enemy, not every time on bases...
- It will be good to make and direct attacks some times skipping out-posts...
- Battles to use Yamato on defend units
Thank you for this wonderful AI! I started playing the cracked SC2 about 3 days ago, and am happy that I have been able to challenge myself with your AI's! I haven't lost to AI 5.5 in 1v1 yet, but it is totally helping me prepare for SC2 launch. With out you, I'd be a major n00b. ;)
I look forward to future challenges! I'll work on my technique for future AIs! Keep up the good work!
well i post a replay so you can see how boring and easy it is to win ... (without any kind of abusing of ai weakness, just play the usuall way i would do agains human in this matchup)
this is the cheating ai 5.5 on map Blistering Sands
http://www.mediafire.com/?ylzjktdkcmm (http://www.mediafire.com/?ylzjktdkcmm)
if anyone tells me how i can make a video of sc2 replays i would upload on youtube
i see mini improvements from version 3 too 5,5 , but this improvements are so small that they probably be noticed only by newbs and i guess people who really wants play sc2 so badly are mostly experienced rts player (i was quite a good scbw player back then before i quite it 2006)
but since there wont be a cracked sc2battle.net for a while this is the only way we can play right now, so keep up with the improvment and make the ai super cheating (not early game, at this stage its fine, but as u can see in my replay my first attack at 7min or so was deadly to ai, because its middle game lacking macro micro and the right unit combination, but it had expanded ... especialy a terran player doesnt need such early expansion and after i checked the replay it had 1000+ minerals, that could be so many marines if it would spend that money properly)
Been said enough, but I want to say it again:
Thanks for all the effort, is fun playing it this way and checking this website for great "updates" :D
Overall reported suggestions of mine...
- Expansion defenses
- AI doesn't waste units pulling back and going forward etc.
- AI gets higher tech units too.
- If you do make them get higher tech units, make sure they don't just mass those, that's not fun and that's what makes the "not so easy" AI suffer, lack of variety.
- Make zerg units burrowable
- If possible, try to make the AI aim for counters, but idk how hard that'd be, if even possible.
Quote from: Artanis186 on March 03, 2010, 08:35:31 AM
Overall reported suggestions of mine...
- Expansion defenses
- AI doesn't waste units pulling back and going forward etc.
- AI gets higher tech units too.
- If you do make them get higher tech units, make sure they don't just mass those, that's not fun and that's what makes the "not so easy" AI suffer, lack of variety.
- Make zerg units burrowable
- If possible, try to make the AI aim for counters, but idk how hard that'd be, if even possible.
- Expansion defenses
Fixed- AI doesn't waste units pulling back and going forward etc.
Fixed- AI gets higher tech units too.
Fixed-If you do make them get higher tech units, make sure they don't justmass those, that's not fun and that's what makes the "not so easy" AIsuffer, lack of variety.
Fixed- Make zerg units burrowable
Fixed- If possible, try to make the AI aim for counters, but idk how hard that'd be, if even possible.
Working on
Quote from: turdburgler on March 03, 2010, 09:33:51 AM
Quote from: Artanis186 on March 03, 2010, 08:35:31 AM
Overall reported suggestions of mine...
- Expansion defenses
- AI doesn't waste units pulling back and going forward etc.
- AI gets higher tech units too.
- If you do make them get higher tech units, make sure they don't just mass those, that's not fun and that's what makes the "not so easy" AI suffer, lack of variety.
- Make zerg units burrowable
- If possible, try to make the AI aim for counters, but idk how hard that'd be, if even possible.
- Fixed
- Fixed
- Fixed
- Fixed
- Fixed
I love you.
Does this mean we're getting V 6.0 ;D ???? :D
Oh man CAN'T WAIT , any possible eta?
Quote from: turdburgler on March 03, 2010, 09:33:51 AM
Quote from: Artanis186 on March 03, 2010, 08:35:31 AM
Overall reported suggestions of mine...
- Expansion defenses
- AI doesn't waste units pulling back and going forward etc.
- AI gets higher tech units too.
- If you do make them get higher tech units, make sure they don't just mass those, that's not fun and that's what makes the "not so easy" AI suffer, lack of variety.
- Make zerg units burrowable
- If possible, try to make the AI aim for counters, but idk how hard that'd be, if even possible.
- Expansion defenses Fixed
- AI doesn't waste units pulling back and going forward etc. Fixed
- AI gets higher tech units too. Fixed
-If you do make them get higher tech units, make sure they don't justmass those, that's not fun and that's what makes the "not so easy" AIsuffer, lack of variety. Fixed
- Make zerg units burrowable Fixed
- If possible, try to make the AI aim for counters, but idk how hard that'd be, if even possible. Working on
I could kiss you.
So does all those "fixeds" imply 6.0 should be right around the corner? Today perhaps?!
Quote from: orbb24 on March 03, 2010, 11:11:49 AM
So does all those "fixeds" imply 6.0 should be right around the corner? Today perhaps?!
I would prefer it to be tomorrow, so they can do it more shiny, and keep working on it.
I dont want to kick 5.5's ass, and then get pwned by 6.0 :)
Quote from: itsarabbit on March 03, 2010, 11:34:53 AM
Quote from: orbb24 on March 03, 2010, 11:11:49 AM
So does all those "fixeds" imply 6.0 should be right around the corner? Today perhaps?!
I would prefer it to be tomorrow, so they can do it more shiny, and keep working on it.
I dont want to kick 5.5's ass, and then get pwned by 6.0 :)
I'm still waiting for an AI to beat me... (I haven't downloaded any of the cheating ones). If 6.0 kicks my ass, I'll be ecstatic. :)
I rather get pwned by 6.0 then have another version that is still rather easy. It will just make me get better. Right now all I really do is macro to practice keeping my resources down. I don't apply pressure because that is an instant win. I don't scout because I don't really need to. It doesn't change my play at all against this AI. I am getting very lazy mainly for the reason that doing the proper things leads to a really fast and easy win. And when not playing against a human it isn't that much fun to win right away. I am hoping 6.0 is really strong. But regardless it looks like a lot of the major bugs are fixed so I am happy enough with that.
Quote from: Gamewiz on March 03, 2010, 11:44:55 AM
Quote from: itsarabbit on March 03, 2010, 11:34:53 AM
Quote from: orbb24 on March 03, 2010, 11:11:49 AM
So does all those "fixeds" imply 6.0 should be right around the corner? Today perhaps?!
I would prefer it to be tomorrow, so they can do it more shiny, and keep working on it.
I dont want to kick 5.5's ass, and then get pwned by 6.0 :)
I'm still waiting for an AI to beat me... (I haven't downloaded any of the cheating ones). If 6.0 kicks my ass, I'll be ecstatic. :)
you should try the cheating one they are little stronger
Here is my construtive criticism and ideas:
-The AI should research more, rarely (not to say never) have I seen the AI upgrade weapons or armors.
-Each race should have it's core strategy, i.e. terran should block the ramp with depos, protoss should use chrono boost and warpgates.
-Special abil units should not try to be amidst the fight, they should be backing up, and use its ability (never seen HT using storm).
-AI should gather it's forces before going to attack, not with just a few units, and it should retreat less often, and if it had to retreat not to be overwhelmed, it'd only come back with a bigger army.
Any of you guys when playing with AI , can't load units into T CC? is this a bug or something?
Quote from: Pleomax on March 03, 2010, 11:57:36 AM
Any of you guys when playing with AI , can't load units into T CC? is this a bug or something?
You have to place the units around/under the CC, and then select CC and click "Load".
"Satelite Link CC" (forgot the name) cannot load units inside.
PF can store units, but can't liftoff.
Ya i think I will try the cheating AI. How much stronger would you say it is?
Quote from: krutoistudent on March 03, 2010, 11:48:49 AM
Quote from: Gamewiz on March 03, 2010, 11:44:55 AM
Quote from: itsarabbit on March 03, 2010, 11:34:53 AM
Quote from: orbb24 on March 03, 2010, 11:11:49 AM
So does all those "fixeds" imply 6.0 should be right around the corner? Today perhaps?!
I would prefer it to be tomorrow, so they can do it more shiny, and keep working on it.
I dont want to kick 5.5's ass, and then get pwned by 6.0 :)
I'm still waiting for an AI to beat me... (I haven't downloaded any of the cheating ones). If 6.0 kicks my ass, I'll be ecstatic. :)
you should try the cheating one they are little stronger
Nah, I want to be beaten by a smarter AI, not an AI that beats me because he starts with more minerals and just zergs me to death.
Quote from: orbb24 on March 03, 2010, 12:11:09 PM
Ya i think I will try the cheating AI. How much stronger would you say it is?
I just played PvP with it and it zerged me.
Robotics just warped and there are 7 zealots attacking my door with only 2 zealots and a sentry defending..They kill me..Shortly a bunch of stalkers joined..
I dont like that ai always goes for 2/3 gate rushes
Its nice that, Turd no longer "spam" us with a lot versions. I hope that the next will be a very good, polished one, which will increase the level of the challenge.
Btw, is it only me that can't wait to test my noob skills vs real person :D ?
Just tried my first time vs the 5.5 cheating AI. Usually, I just rape the AI. Now... well, let's just say it's harder to fend off 20 archons, 15 carriers, and an uncountable amount of Zealots.
Just did a cheating AI match myself. It is pretty pointless to try this. Basically the computer gets to put out twice as many units as you and just over runs you. Not much you can do really. Some stationary D helps but in the end you are going to get run over. Just too many units.
Played a handful more games against the cheating AI yesterday, as all 3 races. Had a few surprises, and my time was mostly spent examining the AI's behavior.
TvZ: Zerg seemed to get confused and hover outside my base.. had two expansions, was creating units from all 3 hatcheries (makes sense).
PvP: Protoss is wonky, to say the least, as noted by Turd. What surprised me though, (not sure if this is hardcoded, or added) is that the Stalkers actually Blinked when in combat. Albeit not significantly (and I ripped them apart), they did blink forward, and one blinked down a cliff to get away from my forces.
PvT: Terran expanded 3 times (did not destroy rocks), was building (!!) on its closest expansion, possibly only after almost completely filling its own base up. Building as in, more than a CC and extractors. I saw starports and barracks, as well as a few sparce missile turrets.
8)
Is it just me, or is the AI's endgame strategy nonexistent? The beginning is okay (unless you rush them with zerg early on), but once you get past the initial barrage of units, the AI doesn't know what to do next?
The best way to review the bot is watch the game you just played.
Anyway, some things I noticed about the Terran AI:
- they dont saturate mineral fields (builds 15 scvs and stops for a good while - saturation is at 24)
- the unsaturated minerals results in an imbalance w/ overabundance of gas b/cuz u programmed terran to dual gas early
- instead of building the 3rd rax, perhaps it can tech up? i think the problem in the a.i. lies in optimal build order. if that's the case you should program the standard openings for all 3 races.
- as stated before in my previous post in this thread, the constant back and forth of a.i. army is ridiculous. i've noted that you should program them to retreat and stay put for a little while if the difference in army strength is larger by x amount. meanwhile, they can build their forces. if difference is minimal they should just stay and fight/micro and re-evaluate the strength difference in intervals or something cuz they seem to be constantly evaluating army sizes compared to their own and fog of war fucks with their perception.
I can only provide feedback on early game as any mid game and late is redundant if early is not corrected. little mistakes equate to bigger problems. plus, i'm not too familiar w/ late game anyhow.
btw, turd if u need any testing, build order, etc. help, please let me know. i think i can be of some assistance in that aspect in the same manner that david kim is helping blizzard test in-house.
oh another idea is when the a.i. encounters an abundance of unit x, they should pump unit y (which is the counter to x). they should probably start off with the first possible counter they have available and tech to the best counter if there is an overly large amount of unit x. higher tier units should be weighted since they are naturally stronger than lower tier units. for example, 1 immortal equals x zealots to put it plainly.
UPDATE: upon playin another vs T game, I think a.i. shouldn't pull back his units to defend his base (the ones of his in my base) if his army strength is bigger relative to mine meaning that he can rip apart my base faster than i can his. i had a game where he retreated, rightfully so, but then it occured to me that perhaps if my army was small, he would have retreated too which is bad.
perhaps we can make the T a.i. have the ability to wall off? somehow detect narrow choke points in his main in the early game? perhaps then we would have map dependant a.i.?
So I actually just did a match against a cheating AI right after my last post. Was a TvZ. All I did was wall off and put a couple bunkers at the front of my base. Eventually got 2 marauders and 2 siege tanks to hold off as well. They held off all of the ai rushes until closer to the end of the game. What I did was while that was holding everything off I got one expansion to an island and just built up a reaper strike force. They went around (8 of them in a medivac) and took out a lot of buildings and took some pressure off my front door. Continued doing while massing up battle cruisers from 3 starports. Once I got 6 BCs the ai pushed hard. A lot of loses on both sides. I held them off again and was able to re build a front door D. By the time I had 12 BC I decided to push out. I had my reapers and BCs go through the map and clear out everything. Took some time and some resupplying of the BCs but I eventually won the match. Was a long match though.
Quote from: r3ddrag0nx on March 03, 2010, 01:15:05 PMthey dont saturate mineral fields (builds 15 scvs and stops for a good while - saturation is at 24)
24 is saturation? I only go with 16 and I fare pretty well. I don't see a need for 24, that's just overkill. It'd only be good if the extra 8 were going for expansion, and if they don't, that's a waste of 400 minerals.[/quote]
Quote from: Artanis186 on March 03, 2010, 01:55:32 PM
Quote from: r3ddrag0nx on March 03, 2010, 01:15:05 PMthey dont saturate mineral fields (builds 15 scvs and stops for a good while - saturation is at 24)
24 is saturation? I only go with 16 and I fare pretty well. I don't see a need for 24, that's just overkill. It'd only be good if the extra 8 were going for expansion, and if they don't, that's a waste of 400 minerals.
I agree. At the closest mineral (because they do stagger slightly in distance), 2 SCVs is fully saturated. So technically it's more like 2-2.5 SCVs per mineral for saturation, but to me that's not fully necessary. So 16 SCVs per standard mineral batch (12 for the high yield) is a nearly full saturation. 24 is definitely overkill.
Stats for probes:
12Probes: 457-533
16Probes: 629-686
20Probes: 725-781
22Probes: 743-819
+24Probes: 762-838+
26Probes: 762-838
30Probes: 781-857
34Probes: 781-857
[/size][/color]
[/size][/color]You can 150 more per minute with the extra probes. Besides, by 18 probes you should have an expansion up.
[/size][/color]
[/size][/color]The AI pushes should come when (as Protoss) you have around 140 supply. They should fall simply. After that you should be at 200/200 for until you clear them out. If you are ever below 150 after their first push, be looking at your macro. I've found I could get 2 expansions by the first push and then when I push out to kill the first comp I take a 4th base (on Lost Temple the close island). After that I sweep to the other comp and take the last comps Nat. By then it's just too many minerals to use, massive non-stop 200/200 with units just warping the moment they die right into the battle field (if they die). The AI doesn't even stand a chance at that point.
[/size][/color]
[/size][/color]So my suggestion: the AI should be at 200/200 mid/late game. I don't care if it has to cheat to do so, but now that I'm at least noobie instead of ultra-noobie at macro, I notice how much quicker I can get to 200/200 than the cheating AI.
Quote from: 2g4u on March 03, 2010, 12:17:50 PM
Btw, is it only me that can't wait to test my noob skills vs real person :D ?
You're not the only one. Keep working on your 1337 skills though, there are some pretty crazy good players out there that will totally kick asses. ;)
Not to sound ungrateful, but when should we expect a new AI? (I'm assuming version 6.0)
There was a new version or two every day for a while, now it's been two days since an update. I'm dyin here ><
To be honest version 3, 4, and 5, felt pretty similar to me. Except each one gets slightly better, such as more units and better structuring of their base, but they don't feel any smarter than before.
Granted, you guys are doing an AMAZING job making these AIs. And I am very thankful. I'm hoping for some big changes in 6.0.
Keep truckin :)
Quote from: Gamewiz on March 03, 2010, 02:02:35 PM
Quote from: Artanis186 on March 03, 2010, 01:55:32 PM
Quote from: r3ddrag0nx on March 03, 2010, 01:15:05 PMthey dont saturate mineral fields (builds 15 scvs and stops for a good while - saturation is at 24)
24 is saturation? I only go with 16 and I fare pretty well. I don't see a need for 24, that's just overkill. It'd only be good if the extra 8 were going for expansion, and if they don't, that's a waste of 400 minerals.
I agree. At the closest mineral (because they do stagger slightly in distance), 2 SCVs is fully saturated. So technically it's more like 2-2.5 SCVs per mineral for saturation, but to me that's not fully necessary. So 16 SCVs per standard mineral batch (12 for the high yield) is a nearly full saturation. 24 is definitely overkill.
24 is certainly not overkill. That's the number of probes that gives you the fastest income. Besides, you are going to be expanding at some point. When the new nexus goes up, you're going to want to move some of your probes from your main to your expansion (maynarding) so it is up and running as fast as possible without having to build as many new probes from the new nexus. Keeping that in mind I will often oversaturate, then when a new expansion comes up it is mining at a fast rate right away
Quote from: cliffton on March 03, 2010, 04:17:34 PM
Quote from: Gamewiz on March 03, 2010, 02:02:35 PM
Quote from: Artanis186 on March 03, 2010, 01:55:32 PM
Quote from: r3ddrag0nx on March 03, 2010, 01:15:05 PMthey dont saturate mineral fields (builds 15 scvs and stops for a good while - saturation is at 24)
24 is saturation? I only go with 16 and I fare pretty well. I don't see a need for 24, that's just overkill. It'd only be good if the extra 8 were going for expansion, and if they don't, that's a waste of 400 minerals.
I agree. At the closest mineral (because they do stagger slightly in distance), 2 SCVs is fully saturated. So technically it's more like 2-2.5 SCVs per mineral for saturation, but to me that's not fully necessary. So 16 SCVs per standard mineral batch (12 for the high yield) is a nearly full saturation. 24 is definitely overkill.
24 is certainly not overkill. That's the number of probes that gives you the fastest income. Besides, you are going to be expanding at some point. When the new nexus goes up, you're going to want to move some of your probes from your main to your expansion (maynarding) so it is up and running as fast as possible without having to build as many new probes from the new nexus. Keeping that in mind I will often oversaturate, then when a new expansion comes up it is mining at a fast rate right away
Makes sense. I'll give it a try next time I play.
I know this has been mentioned, but I want to stress this as I think it's very important. Please please please make the AI destroy rocks and things to get to other areas or expansions. Places like Kulas Ravine are so easily exploitable because the AI will *not* destroy rocks, which means those side expansions will never be accessed by them, and they will never try to destroy the rocks that allow shorter passageway from left to right.
Quote24 is saturation? I only go with 16 and I fare pretty well. I don't seea need for 24, that's just overkill. It'd only be good if the extra 8were going for expansion, and if they don't, that's a waste of 400minerals.
If you're new to starcraft, I suggest you listen to the advice from the more experienced SC1 players.. 24 workers is definitely
NOT overkill...
ive found out with the AI if u were to trap there units and your army is bigger then theres they just try and run by your units and not even attack but they wont even make it they just all die so to make the game fun when they run i run they only really attack if they know there going to win the battle or your attacking there main base so they try to do anything to stop you funny how the works run around the base all crazy like shouldnt they all run to there other base and mine or somthing but the AI is really good and fun
they just lack some micro and never use many spells
I've made some changes to the terran and toss late game to make it harder. You can try it from the latest svn here (https://www.assembla.com/code/sc2ai/subversion/nodes/trunk). I removed a bottleneck for terran that made it be stuck on vikings in the late game. And I added a new ground units late game for toss where it will use colossus and observers. I also made sure toss and terran had transportation in the late game so that they can expand to the islands, or high ground like in Shakuras Plateau, and attack your island expansions.
As usual if you have a decent APM you can kill the AI any time. But this should have terran attack with bigger groups of vikings, thors and tanks in the late game. And have toss attack with bigger groups of zealots, stalkers, immortals, colossus and observers. So that they become little more of a challenge.
I just tried this AI out on two maps that are listed as AI maps and these are: Metalopolis (6 players) and Kulas Ravine (4 players), as my favorite race is Zerg, i easily won both times.
It seems that the AI is too much of a tech builder and does not take out any units in the early game, instaid it saves for heavy cost units that are totally worthless in a 15min early game. It also do not rush or does any early attack to prevent any incoming attack from other ai or players. So im hoping this can be improved.
To me this is almost like the AI that blizzard made in SC1. Anyway, good luck!.
Quote from: Buzzard on March 03, 2010, 05:24:34 PM
It seems that the AI is too much of a tech builder and does not take out any units in the early game, instaid it saves for heavy cost units that are totally worthless in a 15min early game.
Which race did you play against?
Quote from: JPeterson on March 03, 2010, 05:30:42 PM
Quote from: Buzzard on March 03, 2010, 05:24:34 PM
It seems that the AI is too much of a tech builder and does not take out any units in the early game, instaid it saves for heavy cost units that are totally worthless in a 15min early game.
Which race did you play against?
Protoss, terran and zerg.
Zerg went straight for mutalisks and by the time they got out one, i overran thier base with hydralisks
Protoss..well.. they went for air units as well and by the time they got out some, i overran them.
Terran, i think they went for mech/bio build but still, same there.
Quote from: JPeterson on March 03, 2010, 05:16:09 PM
I've made some changes to the terran and toss late game to make it harder. You can try it from the latest svn here (https://www.assembla.com/code/sc2ai/subversion/nodes/trunk). I removed a bottleneck for terran that made it be stuck on vikings in the late game. And I added a new ground units late game for toss where it will use colossus and observers. I also made sure toss and terran had transportation in the late game so that they can expand to the islands, or high ground like in Shakuras Plateau, and attack your island expansions.
As usual if you have a decent APM you can kill the AI any time. But this should have terran attack with bigger groups of vikings, thors and tanks in the late game. And have toss attack with bigger groups of zealots, stalkers, immortals, colossus and observers. So that they become little more of a challenge.
Will it be included in the official starcrack 2 AI release?
Also, which guys does the AI team consist of?
Quote from: Gamewiz on March 03, 2010, 04:38:16 PM
I know this has been mentioned, but I want to stress this as I think it's very important. Please please please make the AI destroy rocks and things to get to other areas or expansions. Places like Kulas Ravine are so easily exploitable because the AI will *not* destroy rocks, which means those side expansions will never be accessed by them, and they will never try to destroy the rocks that allow shorter passageway from left to right.
If you want it to make little harder, so detroy the rocks yourself with some range units.
I really like AI 5.5 something to kill atleast, zerg is fast rusher, terran and protoss are bit slower. Protoss normaly builds mass carriers in l8game. And the Terran builds marines and marauders at begin.
When i play a random game i get everything double'' main building + builders. anyone knows how to fix it? i think i got a file 2 times somewhere. dont wanna go in there and delete stuff i need.
Keep up the good!thx
maybe 6.5 or 7.0 can have some cheese strategies?
cheese = builds made to surprise the enemy, like building raxes right outside base, very hard(impossible?) with zerg, as they need creep to build stuff.
@itsarabbit I like cheese. (including the starcraft ones your refering 2)
Quote from: Gamewiz on March 03, 2010, 04:38:16 PM
Please please please make the AI destroy rocks and things to get to other areas or expansions. Places like Kulas Ravine are so easily exploitable because the AI will *not* destroy rocks
There is no known way to make the AI do that. It will automatically destroy rocks that are in the way of the optimal hall placement. But they will not destroy any other rocks.
Quote from: JPeterson on March 03, 2010, 06:59:49 PM
Quote from: Gamewiz on March 03, 2010, 04:38:16 PM
Please please please make the AI destroy rocks and things to get to other areas or expansions. Places like Kulas Ravine are so easily exploitable because the AI will *not* destroy rocks
There is no known way to make the AI do that. It will automatically destroy rocks that are in the way of the optimal hall placement. But they will not destroy any other rocks.
Well it's technically possible to create a group of units and force them to destroy a neutral building at specific location but it would be too much work for a relatively small gain. Our AIs have bigger problems atm.
Quote from: JPeterson on March 03, 2010, 06:59:49 PM
Quote from: Gamewiz on March 03, 2010, 04:38:16 PM
Please please please make the AI destroy rocks and things to get to other areas or expansions. Places like Kulas Ravine are so easily exploitable because the AI will *not* destroy rocks
There is no known way to make the AI do that. It will automatically destroy rocks that are in the way of the optimal hall placement. But they will not destroy any other rocks.
Damn...
Quote from: rackdude on March 03, 2010, 02:15:22 PM
Stats for probes:
12Probes: 457-533
16Probes: 629-686
20Probes: 725-781
22Probes: 743-819
+24Probes: 762-838+
26Probes: 762-838
30Probes: 781-857
34Probes: 781-857
You can 150 more per minute with the extra probes. Besides, by 18 probes you should have an expansion up.
Ah, statistics. Just what I like to see. Thanks, now that I know, I'll think otherwise when dealing with my Probe count. ^.^
Ai are scared of cannons... they go back and forth untill all units get destroyed.
:)
There's a wave type with something about destructuables, not sure what it does, but i'll look into it maybe.
also i just found out today i baeling rushed the terran main base amd it had 200 hp left and it was on fire... then after i was in my base getting more zerglings /baelings the pc said gg and i saw that hes command center blow up soo that means they dont repair be nice to see the air terran repair there buildings after a battle
Do the 'Beta Offline AI Maps' use the 5.5 AI?
Any word on the eta of V6? Loving 5.5 just hoping for a step up in difficulty.
have anyone ever win against v5.5 cheating version??
Quote from: chikopaws on March 03, 2010, 09:26:42 PM
have anyone ever win against v5.5 cheating version??
Yes.
I lost two games to it at first, but I found if I went a rush build order it did the trick.
Stomped the cheating version as Protoss, didn't try with Zerg, Terran I had to wall-in but wasn't too troubled at all.
Quote from: RoarMan on March 03, 2010, 09:33:52 PM
Yes.
I lost two games to it at first, but I found if I went a rush build order it did the trick.
Quote from: ElvishSolution on March 03, 2010, 09:54:26 PM
Stomped the cheating version as Protoss, didn't try with Zerg, Terran I had to wall-in but wasn't too troubled at all.
Wow! so it's still beatable!!
I will try it myself. I wanna see how far my skill is :D
thanks and good work,
I liked how 5.1 cheating had a 1.5x mineral mode. 5.5 cheating is too strong for me. 5.5 (non-cheating) is strong and fun if you play to its strengths. I'd emphasize as a design goal, fun and variety rather than eliminating all possible abuses of the AI.
requests:
map hack and unlimited APM without mineral boost would be a fun mode.
1v2 melee maps (not FFA)
LOL
I just about to try to beat ai 5.5 cheating version and turd has posted there will be v6 soon
Finally!! I can beat v5.5 AI cheating version using zerg, terran, protoss.....
with zerg,, I think the best way to counter any AI's first wave is with banelings..
and for the first time ever I met AI destroy a destructible rock to get high yield mineralss
(I played in blistering sands...)
At first i was getting owned by all forces as i was terran everytime - my class. But now i pretty much win all games, 1v1, 4v4 haven't tried the new maps yet.
Each game i do protoss and zerg sends waves and waves of forces to me but by the time they come i've got two tank in siege mode, 10 marines and 1 maruader and a SCV when needed, and this just demolishes the enemy constantly, but later on in the game they have like all bases pretty much i mostly always have two, as i was saying later in the game they have big enough forces to destroy my defense, but they don't, and i'm not worried about my defense because my two tank in siege mode, 10 marines and 1 maruader and a SCV just destroying all of em wave after wave. Leaving me to expand alot and win by Banshees and Vikings fully upgraded.
However though i've just had a TvT, that was toughest and hardest battle i've had so far, because i've two bases they had rest this was on Scrapstation, and they kept on pressuring me but i was building up my army of Banshees and Viking's. The enemy terran was building thor's had like 6 starports and kept constantly attacking me with viking and thors and tanks, absolutely owning my defences somehow i kept defending and still was building up my army, then the enemey did a sneaky attack, coming around from the back attacking by air, this time i got frustrated, got my army and won.
Overall Terran are hardest for me to defeat, then protoss then zerg.
The AI's needs to learn how to counter our forces making the game more challenging and more stragetical for us.
could you please make the AI better in the Late Game? I mean seriously, once you have the upperhand the AI always tries to attack you, "sees" that you have the superiour army, retreats and loose always 10-20% of their army. So once you have a food count of about 120 or bigger, the AI will never have a chance, even if i dont attack and go to the toilet, the AI will never have a big army.
It would be nice to have a AI that will, if let it, max out (like getting 200/200 Food or close to).
Plus, PLEASE, let the AI make Upgrades. Because once again, the longer the Match goes, the weaker the AI will get, because one of the small army size in Late Game AND two because it will always have 0-0 Upgrades, which sucks against my 3-3 120+ Food Army.
i agree with manfredmustermann but reading the V6 it seem you guys have had that planned :)
Only problems with AI I have encountered thus far are as follows:
While playing Terran, if you seal off your entrance and put defenses behind the supply depots, the enemy zerg will keep sending units to your doorstep to get owned. Eventually allowing you to leave your base and wreck face.
Also, when AI is building expansion on an ecen match, they will keep building it instead of cancelling when my units raid it. This is mad money loss for PC. These are my 2 cents for now.
Hi! you did a good work on ai. For example, i was impressed by protoss sometimes rushing to make a stargate and doing an air unit to try to screw me.
The problems i've found are :
- Making a maze at my entrance and putting a long range unit on top floor and the ai keep coming and running back, if you can fix this, it would be good ;)
- As others mentionned, ai don't really defend his expansions, but the effort he's doing to get as much expansion as possible is good, it's quite better than SC1 ai that probably never get more than 2 expansions.
Hope it helps you :)