DarkBlizz

Quote from: manfredmustermann on March 05, 2010, 01:50:26 PM
Why dont you guys relaxe a little?

There is no point in "Playing with the cheating AI like you would against a human player", simply because it is CHEATING, wich means that the AI will have MORE units then it is possible to build without cheating, so you NEED to abuse the fact, that the AI wont attack in the very first seconds/minutes of the game. You need to mine the ressources the AI already has (by cheating), that is why you can not win if you do something like a 9 pool because even if you survive the first attack you simply dont have the ressources to survive the second attack.

i played some zvt today and won them, but you can only win by beeing extremly abusive, just because the AI will not only have a massive first attack (esp. the one with the reapers is hard, since reapers rape zerglings) but it will tech ultra fast to 2-3 BattleCruisers and if you dont have enough Hydralsiks at that moment you will simply die.

So there is no point in "playing like against a human player" because guess what, the cheating AI CHEATS and you are already far behind if the game starts, so you need to make a good comeback and you can only do that by getting some ressources really fast.

Actually, you CAN play against this AI like you're playing against a human player. Whether or not you win because of playing like that is the question. You can play and try to restrict your abuse on AI as much as possible. Everyone keeps saying you have to abuse the AI to win, well fine, but why not try to play and limit this abuse as much as possible? That is what I am trying to get at. Stop building defense structures, stop using easy exploits to the AI. Ultimately, if you think it's impossible, then that's you. I find it possible to win still, not always, but sometimes. Don't play to win, just play to challenge yourself.

I'm not upset. I'm just clearly pointing out the fact that it's been complained about so many times already. There was no use in pointing it out again. If you think to read before posting, you'd find that the "easiness" of the AI is prominent throughout the forum and does not need to be mentioned again. Besides that, everything he has mentioned has nothing to contribute to AI 6.0. Everything he has said is known, it sounds more like whining rather than "suggesting". It's clear he had no motive to bring anything to help improve the AI or motivate the devs, he just wanted to point out the fact that the current AI was..."retarded".

Quote from: greenbird on March 05, 2010, 04:42:34 AM
gg2 from your posting it's obvious you don't know what you are talking about.
A good terran player can kill a lurker with a single marine by abusing the cooldown timings for attack in sc1. Starcraft 1 AI would auto attack nearest threat which is why decent players can 'dance' units around people who didn't micro them at all. Agro the zealots with 1 ling then hit the furthest zealot with the other 5 and swap ling positions so they never get hit more than twice. Mainly because it takes 3 zealot hits to kill a ling. While 2 hits from 5lings kill a zealot. This is assuming you aren't playing a player but the computers default auto attack controls.

In starcraft 2 the dancing doesn't work effectively in that the unit will stop chasing and go back on the default path after a few seconds if it can't hit the unit.

Easiest way I found to defeat AI zealots is simply to constantly dance units while your defensive structure hits it. AI priortises units first so with 1-2 units keep moving back and forth while your range units/structure hits it. Requires careful micro or your units die pretty quickly. Can't do this vs any other units because lings are faster and rines have range. Killed the initial 10zealot rush with 4lings and 2sunks this way.

Claushouse  with TVP either build a bunker at chokepoint with supply/rax and have 3-4 scvs repairing. Have a scout scv ahead so you know when he moves out, that's when you pull your scvs from base to repair. I usually have about 6 rines and my tank ends up popping during the battle.

BO is 9 rax 10upgraded CC and gas/supply depot 12 factory 14-16 supply depending on whether you want to wallblock using supply or bunker. Main thing in terran is to constantly use the mule, which is why rax before supply. A mule equals 6scvs. Pumping out rines meanwhile.
This works vs zerg/toss , but vs terran you need to cut down on minerals faster and have your gas out earlier so your tank comes out with SIEGE earlier. If you time it right, your tank gets siege just before they hit and with 8rines with 4 in a bunker you should barely win.

Toss is easiest to win with either 14nexus (expand) 15gate/forge and end up with 2-3zealots + 3cannons to win. Must stress the use of chronosphere, gotta keep spaming it on gateway or nexus to get your units out faster. 2-3zealots blocking a choke with cannon support pretty much forces AI to retreat.  Or if you aren't good at expanding fast, gateway with 2-3zealots+2 sentry  +2cannons pretty much wins as well. Another is fast dts, quick gas and don't build any defensive structure make late 2nd gateway and pump out 2dts and put them on hold on choke. Chronosphere boost on gateways so they come out just in time to block.

Zerg 14 2nd hatch14 pool by the time your pool finishes so should your 2nd hatch. Make sure 2nd hatch is built on choke point so you can create your defensive structures there. 2-3 sunkens(can make more if you feel you need to) +8lings +queen+drones if needed stops any rush.

Best things about my specific builds is that you aren't behind economically and you actually start matching the AIs resource pool once you hold off defending.

Terran has it easiest to win quickly, after the initial rush push out with 2tanks +12rines+4marauders +4scvs. Bunker down on his natural and GG.
You win with ez with protoss with zealots 2sentries and 2 collusus. Nothing the AI has at that point can stop it. 
Zergs the only race you can't beat the AI within 20minutes , but pretty ez to win anyway.

Okay, I don't know what I'm talking about. Fine. But I would love to see you kill 4 of my zealots with 6 of your lings. Yeah, you can't. You're talking about COMP zealots. Anybody can do that, retard. And I never said anything about lurkers and marines. But I bet my lurks will own your sorry ass rines anyday if you think 1 marine by itself will do anything to a lurk. Where's your med? Your vessel? Heck, even your scan? Hell, why even morph a hydra into a lurk vs 1 marine. Do you get my point now? Shit looks good on paper but if you don't do it in a game, what's the point?
And why are you lecturing me about dancing? You can micro without dancing your units. You just said it.
You talk big man, even supporting your arguments with what you think is the only way something will work. Stop, please. If you want to prove a point, give us a link. A video please, of all your claims.

You know what? Why don't you give us all your bnet name for SC1 so we can play a match with you? Preferably on iccup. Come on. Give it.

Edit: After having finishing read your post, I remembered what your problem is. You play like you're playing against a comp. I've asked before, but why don't you play like you're playing against a real person? Let me guess, you're just going to go off on something about it being impossible to win because of not being able to dance and micro because SC2 is different, and the AI uses "sheer numbers" to win. Damn, you're ignorant. If you can't win, just say so. People have won, and without playing your "defensive" style. If you can't win without playing that way, don't be a dick and try to prove it to everyone that it's impossible and that we all are bullshitting you.

Quote from: Gamewiz on March 05, 2010, 10:57:25 AM

Quote from: Kingdom on March 05, 2010, 10:54:32 AM
Considering a in-base proxy gate NEVER will work in higher tiers of play (might see it in silver ladder now if anything), Blizzard would not of nerfed a unit because of it.

Zealot was nerfed because in cost vs effectiveness, it was just too superior to its matching tier of unit. A single zealot could kill ~4 zerglings, 3-4 marines without proper micro, and in larger battles make retreating turn into a nightmare (post- charge tech). Considering the unit diversity, namely Immortals; they don't want a conflicting tank roll, but instead have Zealots be the tier 1 flexible filler it should be. Least that is what I would think.

I agree with your reason, but I disagree that the proxy strat isn't a viable strategy above silver ladder. I just watched a couple videos of gold league where it worked extremely well. Especially in blistering sands. A probe can place a pylon below the cliff (near the back entrance), then go up the ramp and place the two gateways. With the pylon down below, there is no way to quickly take it out to keep them from spamming out zealots. Throw up one other pylon up top, and it's GG.

It may work now, but it won't when more high skilled players get into the leagues. I don't consider myself high skilled, but a proxy "IN" base would never work on me. Ever. Even if you do the backdoor pylon trick. It's like your saying CANNON RUSH works in high skilled play.

Back to the topic; like Kingdom says, Zealot even without SC1's leg enhancements are extremely powerful tier 1 units, and too cheap to produce. Maybe it's just me, but in SC2, the mineral income is so quick by midgame the zeals mineral cost is overjustified by its performance. Those extra shield points alter the attacking power of a GROUP of zeals so much. Adding charge makes zeals incredibly versatile as well, seeing they jump to the enemy units. If their zeals don't die in battle quicker, you end up running away, and their zeals end up chasing you, killing off more of your units than you could hope for.

The whole difference in speed between units is the reason why SC is SC. Take the time to learn your army positioning within the game and how to control your units and you won't have a problem. For example, just don't attack move into the enemy base. Even if you have a superior army, a force with good positioning will take you on no problem.

I also don't understand what you mean when you say you "have" to move your faster units back. You don't. Let them wait for your slower units to catch up. You should always attack move to an area nearby the enemy and wait a couple seconds for your force to regroup before initiating an attack.

Don't listen to the comments about selecting units and clicking onto another unit to make those units follow it. That's a very bad habit and even more irritating to have to do than just commanding the units to go where you want them to right on the map. The key to maximizing your efficiency in army control is to use your CTRL grouping keys. CTRL+1 for certain units, CTR+2 for other units, etc, don't keep everything in one group, that's fail even though SC2 makes it so much easier for that to happen. Personally, I liked SC1's recipe of being able to select only 12 units at a time. You learn to control your units well when you have to attack move 5 full groups of a dozen units each to attack the enemy base. 1a2a3a4a5a.

6 lings will never kill 4 zealots, don't know where you got that from, unless there is a huge upgrade difference. I could care less about losing. I can defend the initial rush with workers as support, I'd just be far behind. But depending on the AI's unit choice, I can catch up. All due to luck and AI faultiness.

You say so yourself it's too easy to stomp the computer, then don't play defensively. Add a little challenge by trying to micro even if SC2 doesn't have a strong focus on micro. I don't know why you emphasize winning so much versus exploration, experimentation. And, it "IS" abusing the AI when you're using a method to which AI just cannot possibly react to, such as, massing defense and then just pounding them afterwards. Reminds me so much of the SC1 days where you can go 1v8COMPS and just wall in and blow everything up with tanks. Where's the fun in that?

This is just another repetitive whine. We all know this already. Here's my rendition of this whining list.

1. You're WAY too ignorant, and never really had the "determination" to thank the devs for releasing a cracked version of SC2 for your enjoyment and pleasure. Personally I never thanked the devs, but at least I'm not putting down their effort and hard work.
2. AI is not a human, they will always be scripts and scripts cannot think for themselves, hence, "retarded".
3. Wall in or don't wall in, you'll still own them, does it matter?
4. Play cheat version.
5. Refer to number 4; then creativity in AI's forces will be the least of your worries.
6. Refer to number 2.
7. Refer to number 2. You're pretty much repeating that AI is retarded.
8. Refer to number 4; then you'll never complain once again for AI not having enough resources.
9. Refer to number 2. "AI is retarded", once again.
10. Refer to number 4. They WILL detect your cloaked units.
11. Same complaint as number 10. But I get your point. Overlords just don't like to become Overseers I guess.
12. Refer to number 2. "AI is retarded", once more.

Conclusion: Stop whining, we all know already. Play the cheat version until there is an AI capable of "acting" like a human player. And don't just place defensive structures so you get an easy win.

Yes I agree, but I'm talking about playing the AI straight up without playing defensively. Knowing that no one can really do this has led to the conclusion that you can't possibly win the AI except abuse its potential. Well, I can't say it's impossible, I've been able to beat AI without playing defensively, but it was with some luck and a huge slow down because I had to pull my workers to fight. It's more fun this way to challenge yourself rather than keep to the boring old defending which most people can do.

@thaned
Just copy the TriggerLibs folder from the file you downloaded into your Starcraft II Beta directory in Program Files. It automatically overwrites whatever AI base.SC2Data you installed into the Mods folder. To remove this version AI, just take out the TriggerLibs folder with all the galaxy files inside it and your original AI base.SC2Data will kick in.

Ok, I've realized that your problem could be within your Battle.net folder in Documents and Settings > User > AppData > Local > Blizzard Entertainment. Before doing anything, make a copy of your Cache folder in the Battle.net folder so you don't lose your stuff.

I was overclocking my GPU and errored out in SC2 (tried to go beyond its processing capabilities) and ever since that, I had the same problems you did after launching SC2. Low fps. Crashing with the Blizz box asking me to send a report.

To diagnose, I reinstalled, which did not work. So I realized it couldn't be the SC2 directory causing problems, so I went straight to deleting the Battle.net folder in doc and settings, booted up SC2, which loaded into the login screen and crashed. I restarted SC2 again, and voila, everything turned to normal again. The Battle.net folder was replaced automatically.

After doing so, just put your Cache folder back into the new Battle.net folder, replace whatever it asks you to, and then you should be good to go again. At least, it worked for me.

Quote from: MeruFM on March 04, 2010, 05:22:09 PM
Playing against the Cheating AI is definitely not the same as playing against a real person.
Same goes for the older cheating AI people made for broodwar.


Just an example


10 Rax scout
11 Gas
11 Comsat
11 Supply


When my scout gets to the enemy protoss or terran base at around 12/13, they somehow already have 3 gateways or 2 barracks up which is just insane.


Forces you to play defensive or somehow mess up the enemy workers by glitching the AI a bit. Either way, it's nothing like playing a real person who adapts. The computer can just manage to win by sheer numbers building faster than you if you don't do some sort of wall-in.

Yes, by the time your scout arrives, the comp already has 2-3 structures up. That's the fun of the cheating version, to try to survive whilst playing a matchup as if against a real person. Makes you try to play faster in response. But playing defensively, the AI will just fail.

I think he means to play without doing a quick zeal rush because the rush will stop the overall potential of the AI. I still can't manage to defend the initial AI attack well, unless I rush and stop the AI's potential power. Some matchups I can, some I can't. I play random.

Lol okay. No offense but a little more time spent on grammar could help your posts be read a little easier. Anyways, aside from that, what are zeppelins? lol. I agree, AI 5.5 cheating is tough. In 1v1 how do you manage to get AIR as toss before comp rapes you? Unless you put up defense structures and defend the initial attack I think the game would be over by then.

Is dayvie still the best on bnet? Last I checked he wasn't. I too would like to see the platinum folks play against cheating AI.

@Swarmling
GJ. yeah I could see the 3 gate rush working for zerg.

Are you running 64 bit version OS? I have Win7 64-bit and I'm not having any problems, but SC2 "IS" a 32-bit process. Maybe you're having some software compatibility problems.

But you guys don't get my point. r3ddrag0nx does though. I'm talking about pure 1v1 vs cheating AI without doing some gay defending, cannoning up, bunking up, etc. Anyone with some skill at spamming "B" and "C" can do that. I'm talking about playing with build orders, etc. Play with pure build order style like you would against a real human player and then tell me you can do it easily.

@hahahobun that's the same thing I did to win. I feel pathetic for putting up those 2 cannons though.

@iPcc appreciate the tips but I'm talking about 1v1. FFA is a whole lot of difference.

The game speed for which ladder games will be played on is "Faster" in SC2. There is no "Fastest". You guys are confusing the settings with SC1, which had the "Fastest" option.

In replays, the setting for actual speed that players should be playing at is also "Faster". There's only Fast. Faster. Fasterx3. Fasterx6.
And of course, slow.

Yes, the timer is off. It's quite faster than real-time seconds. But how Blizz created the game and the timer, that's how we'll be playing it. Faster.