This improved script is made by a Chinese player buyiyi at http://3dmgame.chnren.com/bbs/showtopic-1149048.html (http://3dmgame.chnren.com/bbs/showtopic-1149048.html) (same forum for the enhanced Protoss & Zerg AI author).
The comments show that the improvements are quite decent. The AI now uses resource more wisely and completely, and knows how to defend better.
Update: Midgame AI strategy completely rewritten and AI detection capability greatly enhanced. Many other tweaks too. This is the last improved version of StarCrack AI before the epic 6.0 comes.
P.S. Install StarCrack AI 5.5 Cheating version first and then extract the attached file to the Starcraft II beta folder. It'll show StarCrack AI V5.5++ THE LAST.
Ooooo it keeps better all the time. :)
did some tested this already?
feedback please
If it helps, this is what he said he did.
"blah blah spent whole day figuring this shit out...
watched some replays, figured out AI doesn't use resources
cause its the cheating version, AI gathers at 2x resources speed, so that's why its not using it all
only made a few changes to early, mid game tactics, and resource utilization. i couldn't figure out the mining splitting (not sure what he means? maybe maynarding peons or something to expos) issue though cause im not that skilled. all in all though, resource utilization has been improved. cause of that the AI is noticeably more difficult. working on the non-cheating version... everybody test it out, let me know how it goes.
i just use trial and error to make the changes so there may be some bugs here and there. cause its based off of someone elses AI, its not going to be ground breaking stuff from only one revision. but for us casual gamers, doesnt hurt to check it out.
just install it via TriggerLibs extraction to SC2 directory
at game start it'll say what the AI's race is. it'll also say 5.5++ at game start instead of just "StarCrack 5.5". if you don't have these two lines of text then you probably installed it wrong.
edit: improved AI's defensive capabilities, changed other misc details
looking forward to your testing"
So basically this improved version makes AI 5.5 Cheating version even harder? I'm going to try it out right after this to see what it actually does, but can I see a show of hands for people who "can" actually beat 5.5 cheating every time guaranteed? If there isn't anyone, isn't it hard enough?
Quote from: gzxaaa on March 03, 2010, 01:14:03 PM
1. The AI won't harvest gas at expo, making AI lack of gas for high-tech units, such as Broodlord for zerg.
2. There could be a way to randomize the early game strategy for AI, like the protoss should not always go Zealot rush, but have some alternative approaches.
Both have been sorted in v 6.0. If he took a better look at 5.5 he would have noticed that toss and terran have two possible "early games". Anyway, back to coding.
Wow this is much harder than 5.5!
Thanks :-*
Still very beatable, at least for me, of course to expect an AI to ever give an experienced SC (and RTS in general) player like me any real trouble is basically unheard. For casual players I'm even v5.5 without cheating is a challenge. Probly should look into difficulty levels at this point.
Ok I just played this with the cheat version of 5.5 and it's not beatable at all. The comp just has way too much on their initial attack for any possible defense.
EDIT: How are you beating the comp?
EDIT: Okay, that's weird. Changing the base.sc2dat back to the original, and then playing against this 5.5++ made the comp seem quite easy. But I swear it was a lot more difficult playing with the cheat version 5.5 base.sc2dat. Does the TriggerLibs overwrite the base.sc2dat? It seems combining cheat version 5.5 with the 5.5++ makes comp so much harder.
Quote from: ElvishSolution on March 03, 2010, 09:52:41 PM
Still very beatable, at least for me, of course to expect an AI to ever give an experienced SC (and RTS in general) player like me any real trouble is basically unheard. For casual players I'm even v5.5 without cheating is a challenge. Probly should look into difficulty levels at this point.
yeah figured it was beatable 1v1. i guess we are similar. not that i'm an rts player, but im a quick learner. i like how things are coming along. hope ai can give me a run for my money soon w/ the release of v6. turd should definitely take a look at this version to imrpove his, but i think he's already implemented some of the imrpvoements.
Well the other thing is you have to know they are going to have a near unbeatable attack at about 8 minutes in, so you need to build strictly defense until that happens.
For Terran 3-4 tanks is going to take out pretty much anything they throw at you until they get air.
Zerg will probably have the hardest time beating this, and I've not tried with Zerg so I can't say for sure.
For Protoss what I did to stop the attack was build a gateway and a pylon at the only choke point in my base, put cannons on the cliff faces, and by the time they attacked had 6-8 stalkers, drop expanded, got void rays and phoenix(es?) not sure the plural on that, walked into his base.
I'm sure it would seem nearly impossible for many people and for a lot it is, but its mostly experience. SC 1 I would do 8 player Melee 7 comps vs me, to practice my defense and fast macro, so I'm used to it.
The AI is still very much a work in progress eventually the goal I assume is to have 5 or so difficulty levels so that brand new RTS players, and original SC players who have been waiting 12 years alike can enjoy playing vs AI.
Quote from: ElvishSolution on March 04, 2010, 12:08:20 AM
Well the other thing is you have to know they are going to have a near unbeatable attack at about 8 minutes in, so you need to build strictly defense until that happens.
For Terran 3-4 tanks is going to take out pretty much anything they throw at you until they get air.
Zerg will probably have the hardest time beating this, and I've not tried with Zerg so I can't say for sure.
For Protoss what I did to stop the attack was build a gateway and a pylon at the only choke point in my base, put cannons on the cliff faces, and by the time they attacked had 6-8 stalkers, drop expanded, got void rays and phoenix(es?) not sure the plural on that, walked into his base.
I'm sure it would seem nearly impossible for many people and for a lot it is, but its mostly experience. SC 1 I would do 8 player Melee 7 comps vs me, to practice my defense and fast macro, so I'm used to it.
The AI is still very much a work in progress eventually the goal I assume is to have 5 or so difficulty levels so that brand new RTS players, and original SC players who have been waiting 12 years alike can enjoy playing vs AI.
For Zerg you get like 6 banelings and blow up all their Zealots and have roaches and hydra to back it up and gg the AI doesnt kite the banelings
The first attack is easy to defend, but keeping your expansion is almost impossible..unless you have a nice wall or many tanks.
Quote from: Nakeddan on March 04, 2010, 12:52:28 AM
For Zerg you get like 6 banelings and blow up all their Zealots and have roaches and hydra to back it up and gg the AI doesnt kite the banelings
Yeahh,, Banelings is really good to beat the first wave.. although I tried that with the original v5.5 cheating version
after that maybe you can mass muta or hydra
Quote from: ElvishSolution on March 04, 2010, 12:08:20 AM
For Protoss what I did to stop the attack was build a gateway and a pylon at the only choke point in my base, put cannons on the cliff faces, and by the time they attacked had 6-8 stalkers, drop expanded, got void rays and phoenix(es?) not sure the plural on that, walked into his base.
woow,, you're really a pro player..
anyway, why void ray?? I think they will be destroyed before they reach 3 beams (I havent tried it myself)
Quote from: ElvishSolution on March 04, 2010, 12:08:20 AM
Well the other thing is you have to know they are going to have a near unbeatable attack at about 8 minutes in, so you need to build strictly defense until that happens.
For Terran 3-4 tanks is going to take out pretty much anything they throw at you until they get air.
Zerg will probably have the hardest time beating this, and I've not tried with Zerg so I can't say for sure.
For Protoss what I did to stop the attack was build a gateway and a pylon at the only choke point in my base, put cannons on the cliff faces, and by the time they attacked had 6-8 stalkers, drop expanded, got void rays and phoenix(es?) not sure the plural on that, walked into his base.
I'm sure it would seem nearly impossible for many people and for a lot it is, but its mostly experience. SC 1 I would do 8 player Melee 7 comps vs me, to practice my defense and fast macro, so I'm used to it.
The AI is still very much a work in progress eventually the goal I assume is to have 5 or so difficulty levels so that brand new RTS players, and original SC players who have been waiting 12 years alike can enjoy playing vs AI.
i think it would be more challenging to build normal builds (instead of cannoning up) and wall off if possible. at least for me, i try to emulate how i would play an actual player. tha's always a good test. i havent tried this cheating version yet, but will soon.
btw, if u want to be pro sc2, start practicing 15 hours a day or forget it, lol. what a life huh? trust me, being a competent player is different than pro and takes a lot of dedication and time away from real life. i would know personally.
Quote from: gg.sc2 on March 03, 2010, 10:41:15 PM
Ok I just played this with the cheat version of 5.5 and it's not beatable at all. The comp just has way too much on their initial attack for any possible defense.
EDIT: How are you beating the comp?
EDIT: Okay, that's weird. Changing the base.sc2dat back to the original, and then playing against this 5.5++ made the comp seem quite easy. But I swear it was a lot more difficult playing with the cheat version 5.5 base.sc2dat. Does the TriggerLibs overwrite the base.sc2dat? It seems combining cheat version 5.5 with the 5.5++ makes comp so much harder.
Ok, finally defeated cheating AI 5.5 with Zerg by spamming Mutalisks early game. Kept my Queen alive during early zeolot rush by running around base. Played in Metropolis 4 players FFA. 2PvZ vs me. By the time I saw enemy's Colossus attacking another base, I immediately flew towards Protoss base and destroyed his probes and base. Protoss seems to be very weak against Mutalisk rush.
Gonna try other factions.
Quote from: iPcc on March 04, 2010, 05:13:21 AM
Quote from: gg.sc2 on March 03, 2010, 10:41:15 PM
Ok I just played this with the cheat version of 5.5 and it's not beatable at all. The comp just has way too much on their initial attack for any possible defense.
EDIT: How are you beating the comp?
EDIT: Okay, that's weird. Changing the base.sc2dat back to the original, and then playing against this 5.5++ made the comp seem quite easy. But I swear it was a lot more difficult playing with the cheat version 5.5 base.sc2dat. Does the TriggerLibs overwrite the base.sc2dat? It seems combining cheat version 5.5 with the 5.5++ makes comp so much harder.
Ok, finally defeated cheating AI 5.5 with Zerg by spamming Mutalisks early game. Kept my Queen alive during early zeolot rush by running around base. Played in Metropolis 4 players FFA. 2PvZ vs me. By the time I saw enemy's Colossus attacking another base, I immediately flew towards Protoss base and destroyed his probes and base. Protoss seems to be very weak against Mutalisk rush.
Gonna try other factions.
Btw, when attacking the base, attack the pylons first to deactivate any defense structures. gtg now bbye.
terran first wave = 10 marines + 5-6 marauders.. at that time i had only 3 zealots, 2 stalkers and 2 cannons..
but warped in 2 more lots and pushed them away...
second wave they got a dozen more vikings... but i predicted that and went for immortals..
and good game..
when i looked into the base, mass structures, no units...
anyways.. still good job to those who shared with us
i just beat this AI 3 times in a row once twice with protoss and once with terrain
if u make cannons and bunkers and units for back up its easy to get air units in time to crush there base easily i have yet to beat them with zerg maybe in stead of ling rushing them and roach rush them i should play def and get sunkens and then mutas we will see how it goes..
5.5 cheater not hard for skilled plays use thunder storm is also a good key to victory as protoss nukes pwn the AI also
But you guys don't get my point. r3ddrag0nx does though. I'm talking about pure 1v1 vs cheating AI without doing some gay defending, cannoning up, bunking up, etc. Anyone with some skill at spamming "B" and "C" can do that. I'm talking about playing with build orders, etc. Play with pure build order style like you would against a real human player and then tell me you can do it easily.
@hahahobun that's the same thing I did to win. I feel pathetic for putting up those 2 cannons though.
@iPcc appreciate the tips but I'm talking about 1v1. FFA is a whole lot of difference.
Ok, guys why making canons, i play with protoss i wipe out enemy in open battle he don t even have a chance i have about 5-7 zealots and about 5 stalkers, i kill almoust all his army, but when i start going into his base he wipes me out, he starts making a lot of army, and it s unbeatable in start period of game, it s simple you kill all his army at your base, you come at his base he has bigger army that you. Map is Desert Oasis which is great map and small map. I played Lost temple (4 players) FFA, i just let them destroy each one, and defend myself and make great army, nice idea but pretty hard to make :) . I had 5 zeppelins + ground army + mothership, protoss had 10 zeppelins + massive ground army, i killed maybe 1 weak ground unit, mothership has dissapeared in about max 5 seconds.
Only way to blast this enemy in 1 v 1 is to make a lot air units (i used to make zeppelins + mothership, i was protoss) and go into his base and just wipe it out, just structures and i won that game, he can just produce zerglings (Ai was zerg) that in meantime you make mass of strong units like zeppelins, archons, collosus + warp prism to warp a lot of zealots and stalkers while the game is going on.
I also played 1 game with terrans against zerg, i managed to make 12 reapers, i jumped into his base and destroyed all his structures, but i lost that game because i had in my base 10 units, he had about 50 xd.
Don t stick into your base with units, go expand base, make a lot weak army. And take out enemy, i wiped with 10 zealots and a couple of stalkers and 1 immortal mass of Hellions + marauders + tanks, he killed about 5 zealots which i recovered in fight with instant warping :) . But when i comed to his base battlecruisers wiped me out XD, he has incredible amount of money :) .
One question how many SCV-s, Probes, Drones are you sending on minerals and gas ?
yea all i do play is 1v1 i dont like ffa i rather do all the work + ffa is so lame if u attack a base and there already being attack i see that the attacker trys to run away when i come up the ramp but im blocking it and they all die not even attacking...lol how fun thats why 1v1 is alot better
ive spam zealots and stalkers with a 3gateway rush vs zerg and i won with some micro i was almost lost when like all theses roaches came from no were but stalkers can pwn them easily cause there range is weak easy to out micro them and lings cause they dont up speed it was a easy win no cannons that time and i pushed him that time..lol maybe if they ai got baeling i could of got messed up or ling speed
One more thing, i think that AI 5.5 cheating is stronger than a lot of Starcraft 2 beta Battlenet players (guys which gotted beta key, or bought it). I think that new version of AI cheating will be better even than David Kim, i would like to see him managing against this Ai :) . Human players in my opinion are much easier than AI cheating.
@swarmling try not to bug AI, try to beat him in that way and without attacking him with invisible units, it s stupid beating him in that way :). Excepting Terrans which take invisible units in a flash of second :).
not very true this AI still lacks micro and is very dumb..lol if your army size is bigger he was run back and forth and u can snipe hes units off slowly then once u killed alot follow him into hes base but pull back when u see more units and then he will keep runing back and forth and u can snipe hes units with range units its like a glich or sommthing it happens alot now
Lol okay. No offense but a little more time spent on grammar could help your posts be read a little easier. Anyways, aside from that, what are zeppelins? lol. I agree, AI 5.5 cheating is tough. In 1v1 how do you manage to get AIR as toss before comp rapes you? Unless you put up defense structures and defend the initial attack I think the game would be over by then.
Is dayvie still the best on bnet? Last I checked he wasn't. I too would like to see the platinum folks play against cheating AI.
@Swarmling
GJ. yeah I could see the 3 gate rush working for zerg.
yea but i would like to do a 3gate rush on a real player to see how he would react to that and make a counter cause 3gate rush delays your teching cause u dont wanna get gas yet so u can pump in alot of zealots and mess the ai up then follow it up with stalkers to micro the roaches easy with there low range cant even touch me
I just finish my 1st game vs this AI damn its crazy :>.I won with terran vs zerg :>.With terran is easyer to win becouse terrans defence is the best :>.
So basicly I made marines+marauders+medivacs and advance little by little with bunkers :>.Have 2 expands as well :>.
nvm i couldnt get the replays working
Quote from: gg.sc2 on March 04, 2010, 02:46:52 PM
Lol okay. No offense but a little more time spent on grammar could help your posts be read a little easier. Anyways, aside from that, what are zeppelins? lol. I agree, AI 5.5 cheating is tough. In 1v1 how do you manage to get AIR as toss before comp rapes you? Unless you put up defense structures and defend the initial attack I think the game would be over by then.
Is dayvie still the best on bnet? Last I checked he wasn't. I too would like to see the platinum folks play against cheating AI.
@Swarmling
GJ. yeah I could see the 3 gate rush working for zerg.
Xd, carriers man :), how i managed, i was trying to defend with good army, i fast teached gotted 2 structures (don t know exact name) for carriers, i expand myself in fifth minute, in begging i have a lot of army. Are you sure that 3 gateway rush work for Ai, in one game i gotted some about 7 warp gates WTF, i always research charge and blink, it s imba :). I think that those bnet guys won t have a great chance against those AI, in a couple of first games Ai will pawn them easily :), later i don t know :). I can see that you all win Ai on beggining or blast him out with a couple of nukes :), try some other way, which you can try against human player :). How many SCV-s/Probe-s/Drone-s are you sending on gas ?
Quote from: gile23 on March 04, 2010, 04:35:00 PM
Quote from: gg.sc2 on March 04, 2010, 02:46:52 PM
Lol okay. No offense but a little more time spent on grammar could help your posts be read a little easier. Anyways, aside from that, what are zeppelins? lol. I agree, AI 5.5 cheating is tough. In 1v1 how do you manage to get AIR as toss before comp rapes you? Unless you put up defense structures and defend the initial attack I think the game would be over by then.
Is dayvie still the best on bnet? Last I checked he wasn't. I too would like to see the platinum folks play against cheating AI.
@Swarmling
GJ. yeah I could see the 3 gate rush working for zerg.
Xd, carriers man :) , how i managed, i was trying to defend with good army, i fast teached gotted 2 structures (don t know exact name) for carriers, i expand myself in fifth minute, in begging i have a lot of army. Are you sure that 3 gateway rush work for Ai, in one game i gotted some about 7 warp gates WTF, i always research charge and blink, it s imba :) . I think that those bnet guys won t have a great chance against those AI, in a couple of first games Ai will pawn them easily :) , later i don t know :) . I can see that you all win Ai on beggining or blast him out with a couple of nukes :) , try some other way, which you can try against human player :) . How many SCV-s/Probe-s /Drone-s are you sending on gas :) ?
yea dude i dont think you understand the words 3gateway rush at all cause your not going to have 7 gateways untel mid game and 7 is still a small amount of gateways i build around 15-20 that way u can warp-in 15-20 units at once but i didnt need to build more then 3 gateways cause i pushed the AI trapped him in hes base so u couldnt get a expo with my 15 zealots standing there then once i teched into stalkers and got around 4-5 i started to push into hes base and micro hes roaches cause they got 3 range and stalkers have 5 that way hes roach doent pull of one hit and back up zealots with stalkers so they dont die for notthing also and that way the lings cant touch your stalkers or zealots and there army die slowly and once u know your army will win just fuck micro and crush him..lol
I think he means to play without doing a quick zeal rush because the rush will stop the overall potential of the AI. I still can't manage to defend the initial AI attack well, unless I rush and stop the AI's potential power. Some matchups I can, some I can't. I play random.
Playing against the Cheating AI is definitely not the same as playing against a real person.
Same goes for the older cheating AI people made for broodwar.
Just an example
10 Rax scout
11 Gas
11 Comsat
11 Supply
When my scout gets to the enemy protoss or terran base at around 12/13, they somehow already have 3 gateways or 2 barracks up which is just insane.
Forces you to play defensive or somehow mess up the enemy workers by glitching the AI a bit. Either way, it's nothing like playing a real person who adapts. The computer can just manage to win by sheer numbers building faster than you if you don't do some sort of wall-in.
Quote from: MeruFM on March 04, 2010, 05:22:09 PM
Playing against the Cheating AI is definitely not the same as playing against a real person.
Same goes for the older cheating AI people made for broodwar.
Just an example
10 Rax scout
11 Gas
11 Comsat
11 Supply
When my scout gets to the enemy protoss or terran base at around 12/13, they somehow already have 3 gateways or 2 barracks up which is just insane.
Forces you to play defensive or somehow mess up the enemy workers by glitching the AI a bit. Either way, it's nothing like playing a real person who adapts. The computer can just manage to win by sheer numbers building faster than you if you don't do some sort of wall-in.
Yes, by the time your scout arrives, the comp already has 2-3 structures up. That's the fun of the cheating version, to try to survive whilst playing a matchup as if against a real person. Makes you try to play faster in response. But playing defensively, the AI will just fail.
Cheating AI FTW
How you install these ai? The other ais are sc2.basedata and this one is different.
I wonder who this chinese guy is.
gile23 is a liar. Disregard anything he says in how he beat "ai".
Having said that, anyone who is decent in starcraft 1 can beat this cheating AI quite easily.
The key to winning is knowing what 'build' the AI will do, there are 2 builds for each race.
Zerg will either mass roach/ling or mass ling/hydra, with the mass roach build hitting much earlier.
With good scouting and an advanced scout to tell you when he is due to come you can position your units pretty safely.
You cannot mass units at start to win this game, because you will be so far behind economically.
There's two ways to win regardless of which race you pick.
One is defensive tech build. This is where you slowly build troops from one gateway/rax/hatch while putting down cannons/sunks/ on chokepoint while teching to tier 3 units. 3-4 cannons et ci s good enough to hold the initial rush as long as you have enough troops. Key point is not over creating units or you will be too poor to expand or being too slow to create tier 3 units before the 2nd attack.
The other method is fast expand. This is abusing knowing the timing of their attack. The AI does not 'rush' , so you expand to your natural on 14th prob/drone/scv and at the last minute pump out defensive structures just before first wave hits. This is harder to defend with since if your build timing is 5seconds too late the first rush will hit you just before you have enough units todefend with. But if you do survive the first rush you will have more income than the AI and be able to mass units pretty quickly.
If zerg goes hydra rush, it is pretty hard to stop since defensive buildings are pretty weak, which is why you need to scout early and figure out what it's going to do, but because hydra rush comes about 5minutes later than the ling/roach build you can save money on defensive structures and tech straight to tier 3 units to defend against.
Protoss zealot rush is pretty easy to defend vs , but because they push quicker you need to cut back on the economy to build more units. Stalker rush variation is similiar to the hydra variation.
Terran does either marine/marauder push or reaper push. Probably the easiest out of the 3 to stop. Reaper push is really hard to defend vs if you rely on cliff chokes on maps such as LT since they will ignore your choke point and just attack your units directly.
The AI doesn't spend its money efficiently even it starts with a lot more, which is why you have to be efficient at the start on how you spend money. Building 2 gateways or 2rax is a waste of money vs AI since you won't have the income to pump out units while teching or expanding.
After the initial rush as long as you create the counter units to whatever units the AI builds, it's pretty easy to win.
You can also safely expand to anywhere that isn't a direct path to your base. AI will scout expansions but it won't attack unless it's on their way to your main.
Yes I agree, but I'm talking about playing the AI straight up without playing defensively. Knowing that no one can really do this has led to the conclusion that you can't possibly win the AI except abuse its potential. Well, I can't say it's impossible, I've been able to beat AI without playing defensively, but it was with some luck and a huge slow down because I had to pull my workers to fight. It's more fun this way to challenge yourself rather than keep to the boring old defending which most people can do.
@thaned
Just copy the TriggerLibs folder from the file you downloaded into your Starcraft II Beta directory in Program Files. It automatically overwrites whatever AI base.SC2Data you installed into the Mods folder. To remove this version AI, just take out the TriggerLibs folder with all the galaxy files inside it and your original AI base.SC2Data will kick in.
It's not like starcraft 1 where you could abuse the AI or outmicro the opponents even with inferior numbers. In starcraft 2 there is very little micro except for spells. In starcraft 1 a good player with 6lings could beat 4zealots , now because the AI or auto attack micro is better than most peoples trying to micro manage your units most of the time causes you to lose more than win.
You can still win by proxy rax/bunker rush, cannon rush (5 pool doesn't work, because AI micro is too good), but I doubt anyone in the world can defeat 6zealots with 3zealots vs anyone simply because AI does all the work.
Because the AI will build 3-4gateways from the start I'd like to hear how anyone can harass the AI without going cannon rush et c. You can't. Anyone who says they can is a liar.
Starcraft 1 the ceiling for good micro was very high, but starcraft 2 micro is nearly non existent, so anyone who talks about beating 6zealots with 3 zealots are talking out of their ass.
You can defeat it without defensive structures such as terran if you send scvs to repair supply/rax block , but the amount of wasted time scvs are sent to repair is more than the cost of a bunker. Zerg can stop certain rushes without defensive , but without enough drones to power to 3rd tier, they are pretty stuffed for 2nd push. Protoss can do it by rushing DTs and DT blocking ramp, but that's not something you'd do 'normally'.
The problem doesn't lie with the mapmakers script, the problem lies with the AI micro. A good player vs Computer AI fighting means the person with more units or on defence wins. This wasn't the case in starcraft 1.
Because there's only so many variations in build orders for the AI races, once you know what they are going to send and the timing, it's pretty easy to win.
What's lacking in cheating AI is that it uses its resources really inefficiently. Building 4gateways at start?? Making 6lings and not doing anything with them until it has 16? The script fails badly mid game where it suddenly stops making tier 1 units and starts trying to mass tier 4 units.
Non cheating AI will always be too ez for decent people, and a cheating AI can only be won vs by playing defensively at start thanks to its massive initial resources. I don't mind playing defensively at start, the problem is that if you can hold off the initial rush , it's way too ez to stomp the computer.
6 lings will never kill 4 zealots, don't know where you got that from, unless there is a huge upgrade difference. I could care less about losing. I can defend the initial rush with workers as support, I'd just be far behind. But depending on the AI's unit choice, I can catch up. All due to luck and AI faultiness.
You say so yourself it's too easy to stomp the computer, then don't play defensively. Add a little challenge by trying to micro even if SC2 doesn't have a strong focus on micro. I don't know why you emphasize winning so much versus exploration, experimentation. And, it "IS" abusing the AI when you're using a method to which AI just cannot possibly react to, such as, massing defense and then just pounding them afterwards. Reminds me so much of the SC1 days where you can go 1v8COMPS and just wall in and blow everything up with tanks. Where's the fun in that?
I don't know if you guys are playing the 5.5++, but I am having serious trouble beating this AI.
I've been playing SC since 1998 and my first love is playing the CPU, and I can 1v6 in SC1, but this is giving me problems, even after reading comments and looking at replays.
I'm looking at my last game, TvP, and 4:45 into the game my Protoss enemy has 11 zealots at my door, 4 gateways, an expansion, 16 workers, and my bunkers and several guys are no match.
I escape and regroup behind a rocked area and by 14:45 he's attacking me with a mothership and a small fleet of carriers on top of having a huge ground army and cannon'd base.
The game prior i had 15 roaches and 6 lings at my door within minutes, the game prior to that i got reaper rushed.
Even skipping to tanks or quick expansions doesnt work in time; my only success was with Protoss vs. Protoss just cannon'ing the crap out of my choke point. I expanded to several areas out of my bases way but the enemy found me and destroyed them; whoever said they don't attack expansions is incorrect, they scout and find them.
Moreover, my enemy FULLY upgraded his entire fleet, quickly moving to massive carrier fleets. I got my cannons to kill the interceptors then moved in with Phoenixs (too poor for carriers), but he'd retreat to his well-defended base, then attack my expansions and sit outside cannon range with his carriers and pick them off.
I lasted 55 minutes, but eventually the carriers overwhelmed me when I ran out of minerals. I snuck around multiple times with drop ships to expand but he eventually tracked me down every time, constantly expanding his own empire.
I've only been playing with the 5.5++ for a few hours, but I find it frustrating losing to the CPU.
I'd love for you more skilled players to give me a specific build-order and by what time I should reach those in order to have more success, I'd appreciate it!
EDIT: Just dominated it TvZ with some early tanks then going BC, but vs. a late hydra rush so it was pretty easy; still struggling with other races.
Quote from: claushouse on March 05, 2010, 03:11:03 AM
I don't know if you guys are playing the 5.5++, but I am having serious trouble beating this AI.
I've been playing SC since 1998 and my first love is playing the CPU, and I can 1v6 in SC1, but this is giving me problems, even after reading comments and looking at replays.
I'm looking at my last game, TvP, and 4:45 into the game my Protoss enemy has 11 zealots at my door, 4 gateways, an expansion, 16 workers, and my bunkers and several guys are no match.
I escape and regroup behind a rocked area and by 14:45 he's attacking me with a mothership and a small fleet of carriers on top of having a huge ground army and cannon'd base.
The game prior i had 15 roaches and 6 lings at my door within minutes, the game prior to that i got reaper rushed.
Even skipping to tanks or quick expansions doesnt work in time; my only success was with Protoss vs. Protoss just cannon'ing the crap out of my choke point. I expanded to several areas out of my bases way but the enemy found me and destroyed them; whoever said they don't attack expansions is incorrect, they scout and find them.
Moreover, my enemy FULLY upgraded his entire fleet, quickly moving to massive carrier fleets. I got my cannons to kill the interceptors then moved in with Phoenixs (too poor for carriers), but he'd retreat to his well-defended base, then attack my expansions and sit outside cannon range with his carriers and pick them off.
I lasted 55 minutes, but eventually the carriers overwhelmed me when I ran out of minerals. I snuck around multiple times with drop ships to expand but he eventually tracked me down every time, constantly expanding his own empire.
I've only been playing with the 5.5++ for a few hours, but I find it frustrating losing to the CPU.
I'd love for you more skilled players to give me a specific build-order and by what time I should reach those in order to have more success, I'd appreciate it!
EDIT: Just dominated it TvZ with some early tanks then going BC, but vs. a late hydra rush so it was pretty easy; still struggling with other races.
The cheating version of 5.5 gives the protoss AI extra resources so they can easily mass produce carriers. I can beat the other races, but protoss is really tough to beat if you don't finish them early. By the time you see one carrier, it's already too late since there will be another 6 carriers just around the corner. I once made 4 starports with reactor cores to in attempt to counter, but vikings simply can't hold up against a fleet of carriers.
gg2 from your posting it's obvious you don't know what you are talking about.
A good terran player can kill a lurker with a single marine by abusing the cooldown timings for attack in sc1. Starcraft 1 AI would auto attack nearest threat which is why decent players can 'dance' units around people who didn't micro them at all. Agro the zealots with 1 ling then hit the furthest zealot with the other 5 and swap ling positions so they never get hit more than twice. Mainly because it takes 3 zealot hits to kill a ling. While 2 hits from 5lings kill a zealot. This is assuming you aren't playing a player but the computers default auto attack controls.
In starcraft 2 the dancing doesn't work effectively in that the unit will stop chasing and go back on the default path after a few seconds if it can't hit the unit.
Easiest way I found to defeat AI zealots is simply to constantly dance units while your defensive structure hits it. AI priortises units first so with 1-2 units keep moving back and forth while your range units/structure hits it. Requires careful micro or your units die pretty quickly. Can't do this vs any other units because lings are faster and rines have range. Killed the initial 10zealot rush with 4lings and 2sunks this way.
Claushouse with TVP either build a bunker at chokepoint with supply/rax and have 3-4 scvs repairing. Have a scout scv ahead so you know when he moves out, that's when you pull your scvs from base to repair. I usually have about 6 rines and my tank ends up popping during the battle.
BO is 9 rax 10upgraded CC and gas/supply depot 12 factory 14-16 supply depending on whether you want to wallblock using supply or bunker. Main thing in terran is to constantly use the mule, which is why rax before supply. A mule equals 6scvs. Pumping out rines meanwhile.
This works vs zerg/toss , but vs terran you need to cut down on minerals faster and have your gas out earlier so your tank comes out with SIEGE earlier. If you time it right, your tank gets siege just before they hit and with 8rines with 4 in a bunker you should barely win.
Toss is easiest to win with either 14nexus (expand) 15gate/forge and end up with 2-3zealots + 3cannons to win. Must stress the use of chronosphere, gotta keep spaming it on gateway or nexus to get your units out faster. 2-3zealots blocking a choke with cannon support pretty much forces AI to retreat. Or if you aren't good at expanding fast, gateway with 2-3zealots+2 sentry +2cannons pretty much wins as well. Another is fast dts, quick gas and don't build any defensive structure make late 2nd gateway and pump out 2dts and put them on hold on choke. Chronosphere boost on gateways so they come out just in time to block.
Zerg 14 2nd hatch14 pool by the time your pool finishes so should your 2nd hatch. Make sure 2nd hatch is built on choke point so you can create your defensive structures there. 2-3 sunkens(can make more if you feel you need to) +8lings +queen+drones if needed stops any rush.
Best things about my specific builds is that you aren't behind economically and you actually start matching the AIs resource pool once you hold off defending.
Terran has it easiest to win quickly, after the initial rush push out with 2tanks +12rines+4marauders +4scvs. Bunker down on his natural and GG.
You win with ez with protoss with zealots 2sentries and 2 collusus. Nothing the AI has at that point can stop it.
Zergs the only race you can't beat the AI within 20minutes , but pretty ez to win anyway.
protoss AI uses up most of his minerals from the initial push so if you take his natural he has 4 stargates with no minerals to build a carrier.
Even when he gets carriers , anti air units with ghost +EMP owns them pretty quickly, BCS work well as well.
With protoss mass expand after initial push and get your own carriers, though I usually end the game a lot faster.
Zerg has it easy. Mass upgraded hydras own everything except his main. For some reason AI builds like 20cannons in his base when he starts building his carriers.
But yeah, if you take out his natural he doesn't have enough minerals for carriers. Just a lot of unused gas.
tested ai,
5.5 cheated + china mode
i have to say awesome early game was pretty close Zerg vs Zerg ,
it went mass hyra ling i went one base fast rouches mass, but rouches > hydra lings
anyway he got mutas later and i microed with borrow pretty well (here was his weakness sadly he didnt respond to my borrow micro and i could hold him this way for a few mins till i over massed it and rape the shit out it :-)
anyway by far the best ai and actually you can say here for the first time that you have fun to play the ai, just if it had little better micro, this would make everything perfect (since macro wise its top!)
@ the people who thinks they are good, but can only win by abuse of comp weakness, just a LOL, go play straight forwards, the way you play now wont help you in anyway agains humans
going to play next matchup, will report how it went :
second game here
again mirrow match but this time protoss vs protoss
well his first wave of units was fucking impressive, but since i used a good old scbw strategie i could barly hold (fast dt tech into expo, but the ai is smart and got pretty fast an obs) there where two really close battle after that ai switched to airunis cariers and i just attacked him and GG, carriers are good but only noobs would give you the time to build them :-)
so toss early late game sux since every experienced player will just go and rape the ai while it teching to carriers (takes forever to build them)
btw. with which programm can i make video of my replays? so i could post a youtube video of how to rape this ai in a fair macro battle without anykind of bunkering (mass tanks canons and so on)
this is so far the AI that has actually beaten me... nice!
krutoisstudent, you don't know what you are talking about. The AI has 2 different modes of play per race. Try defending ZVZ one hatch roach/ling when he goes roach ling. His first roach/ling push comes out 5minutes before the Hydra build and he attacks with 12lings+8 roaches.
ZvZ there isn't much you can do without defensive structure, and your burrow won't be half way done when he hits unless you 'rushed burrow' with early gas.
Fast DT is abusing computer weakness. Like any other "build" people have to beat the modified AI. It relies on you knowing that it's never going to 'rush' so you can fast tech before he hits with his 10zealots. VS any decent human opponent in PVP you aren't going to be teching straight to DTs if you know they are massing gateways.
It's only the first push where his extra 1000 minerals make it hard to defend against, once you defend that, it's pretty easy to win.
I should time how fast I can beat the AI without going proxy rax/cannon rush.
I dont like to play those ai cheating versions, because when u send scout u build your strategies about information u get from scouting, and he allready has some buildings, and only one base all time, u cant predict how much resources he has, and how big army he can make it, scouting is wortless and sc2 is basing on scouting. If u win this cheating version, this is far way from the game vs other player.
For me its better to play noncheat version, u can learn more from it.
Quote from: greenbird on March 05, 2010, 06:11:30 AM
krutoisstudent, you don't know what you are talking about. The AI has 2 different modes of play per race. Try defending ZVZ one hatch roach/ling when he goes roach ling. His first roach/ling push comes out 5minutes before the Hydra build and he attacks with 12lings+8 roaches.
ZvZ there isn't much you can do without defensive structure, and your burrow won't be half way done when he hits unless you 'rushed burrow' with early gas.
Fast DT is abusing computer weakness. Like any other "build" people have to beat the modified AI. It relies on you knowing that it's never going to 'rush' so you can fast tech before he hits with his 10zealots. VS any decent human opponent in PVP you aren't going to be teching straight to DTs if you know they are massing gateways.
It's only the first push where his extra 1000 minerals make it hard to defend against, once you defend that, it's pretty easy to win.
I should time how fast I can beat the AI without going proxy rax/cannon rush.
how dont i know what i am talking about? are u stupid?
i talk about what happend in the game, am i jesus to know it can build different styles? and what has it todo with me raping the shit out of it? with pur micro? ??? ??? ??? ? and btw i am right now 5-2 in all games the loses where with 2x me as toss vs terran, his first push there seems not to be stoppable by normal play!
now to dt, what the fuck is abuse about using dt? ??? ?? this is a fucking unit of this game and ai had 20sec after my first attack his obs out and dt where eliminated, but since i am not a total newb like you i splitt them to different location so while he was hunting one down i deal damage with the other
now to the point not teching, are total retarded here? ever played this game agains humans? where did i wrote i dint build anything (try to tech to dt with two gas u will notice u have shitlots of overmins), i had a few zealots
and please dont speak to me like you have any clue of this game, i played scbw for a few years was in german wcg (if you even know what that is)
and i played starcraft2 online about 20games now (friend has a key so once in a while i can play)
though my winrating in goldleague is only 60% , but on the other hand i faced people who played 100+++ online matches, while i only have 20, so in the end pretty good and sadly this comps ais are usless right now because of totaly wrong build orders, only thing u can practice here is macro
ah and boy just because you can not get out max eco with your slow apm or what ever reason it is, dont think all other people are as bad as you, i am by far not the only here who can rape this without bunkering and no dts are not an abuse neither are micro moves like borrowing with raoches (you probobly have not even a clue what it does), rouches without borrow are like marines without their stimmpacks, pretty useless, but you will learn this once you can play online and get raped by this way of play
Quote from: Bobosmrade on March 05, 2010, 06:19:21 AM
I dont like to play those ai cheating versions, because when u send scout u build your strategies about information u get from scouting, and he allready has some buildings, and only one base all time, u cant predict how much resources he has, and how big army he can make it, scouting is wortless and sc2 is basing on scouting. If u win this cheating version, this is far way from the game vs other player.
For me its better to play noncheat version, u can learn more from it.
you have a total valid reason
but the problem right now with the no cheating version, they start to sux after the earlygame (basicly 7-8min you can finish them when you have the right unit mix)
16minutes beat TVT on LT , though 3 minutes of it was taken up killing his buildings, could probably manage 15 minutes if I built my 2nd fact/rax closer to his base. On a smaller map could probably win a bit faster
Bobosmrade: AI starts off with about 1000gas/minerals at start which is how he builds his mass buildings from start. Scouting is useful to figure out which build AI will send. There are 2 build types per race. And you are wrong, I've seen the AI create 4 CCS if you give it mapcontrol. It expands to its natural straight after its initial push.
The non cheat version is way too easy, that's the problem. I could win by giving the computer a 3minute headstart or win in first 3minutes with a 6ling rush. The cheat version(non chinese version) is only semi hard at the start. The chinese cheat which most people are talking about here, is the hardest AI to beat, but even then it's mid game tactic is horrible.
I just want to play vs an AI without winning by playing with mouse only and if the AI starts off with 1000minerals, yeah so be it.
You are a newb, you are 'boasting' about beating an AI that a lot of people have beaten dozens of times. Fast DT tech vs mass gateways is a valid strategy? No, you are abusing the fact you know the AI won't be attacking with its 4zealots even if you have 0 until it creates another 4.
The problem I have with you is that you can 'beat' AI without abusing the system. Fast DT tech no cannons, no zealots isn't a valid strategy vs anyone. Especially knowing he has 4zealots out when your DT structure isn't finished.
If you read earlier before you posted I said fast DT tech is one of the ways to win, because you can abuse the fact it won't rush.
This isn't a forum for starcraft2 strategies vs other players, but how to beat cheating AI. Because it starts off with 1000minerals more at start , all strategies in beating the AI revolves around knowing when he attacks and which units he is sending.
If you really think you are pro because you learnt how to fast tech to DT, you are an idiot.
No ones here to discuss 'tactics' to beat other players , but discussion about beating AI.
I'd love to see anyone who can win vs this cheating AI going a build order they would normally go vs another human player. Etc If I scout and see opponent making 2 gateways I'd do the same thing, the difference being this opponent will have 4gateways while you have 2.
A lot of pros here xd.
@greenbird I do like this against protoss, i expand in about 5-th minute, when enemy comes to me (protoss) i have more units than he has, 3 warp gates, going on zealots + stalkers. You want to play aggresive ok play like that, i played also like that (not chinese AI) i kicked him out in my base and started going, imagine, when i comed to his base he had about 10 zealots + about 5-10 stalkers + collosus + 2 immortals in that time i had about this 15 zealots + 5 stalkers + 1 immortal, i blasted all his army in my base he made that in about 3 minutes, sorry man but that s impossible against human player. It ll be great if they can enable playing against multiple AI-s, like in SC1, i think that emulating Bnet server is pretty hard and will take some time :).
Let s step on. Protoss is the hardest AI, zerg doesn t make ultralisk-s even if he has A lot of money. EMP owns them yee, when they don t recognize invisible targets that s a great tactic against realtime player, you won t be able to get to the shortcut on the keyboard for EMP, carriers will blast out that Ghost. Play like that you are playing against human player, don t bug ai on some stupid ways, also it s stupid to make dark templars when they have low chance of discovering them (except terran). In my opinion zerg is the weakest race in beta, not pretty strong except roaches which are good on beggining, protoss (warping) + terrans(reapers + battlecruisers which are now much stronger than those ones in SC1) are the best races, in a full game probably all races will be balanced, now it s quite unballanced. And one more thing when i send scout, that s when i make pylon, protoss has about 2-3 zealots in his base, pretty weak isn t it :).
Great A.I, its way more fun then vanilla 5.5, IMO.
I noticed the updated version left out the A.I identification (when the a.i. says "gl hf" at the begining), will this feature return in future release ? it was awesome.
Edit: Ok i got it working, thanks.
Quote from: greenbird on March 05, 2010, 06:56:12 AM
You are a newb, you are 'boasting' about beating an AI that a lot of people have beaten dozens of times. Fast DT tech vs mass gateways is a valid strategy? No, you are abusing the fact you know the AI won't be attacking with its 4zealots even if you have 0 until it creates another 4.
The problem I have with you is that you can 'beat' AI without abusing the system. Fast DT tech no cannons, no zealots isn't a valid strategy vs anyone. Especially knowing he has 4zealots out when your DT structure isn't finished.
If you read earlier before you posted I said fast DT tech is one of the ways to win, because you can abuse the fact it won't rush.
This isn't a forum for starcraft2 strategies vs other players, but how to beat cheating AI. Because it starts off with 1000minerals more at start , all strategies in beating the AI revolves around knowing when he attacks and which units he is sending.
If you really think you are pro because you learnt how to fast tech to DT, you are an idiot.
No ones here to discuss 'tactics' to beat other players , but discussion about beating AI.
I'd love to see anyone who can win vs this cheating AI going a build order they would normally go vs another human player. Etc If I scout and see opponent making 2 gateways I'd do the same thing, the difference being this opponent will have 4gateways while you have 2.
seem i am talking with a braindeath guy huh?
are serious that dumb? or you can not read?
you WRITE I DO STUF BECAUSE I KNOW?
read 100000000x times my first post then maybe you will notice something?
if not i tell you, my first game agains this ai was a zerg vs zerg, i played standard roach mass one base (yes newbie this is what every one in platin and gold palys in zvz and nothing more, i dont know what people in newbs league are playing) and won without any kind of abuse, simple outmicroed his 3 to 1 armee , you know hydra slower then roaches so i could snipe all lings without taking damage (lings dont do any to roaches) and after roaches >>>> hydra, so now tell me where was the trick i used to win??????
ohhhhhhhh right you see i beat this crap ai in fair fight but then you will argue it has other build with which it probably would beat me?! who cares , did not i won fair?
now second game i played pvp and won with dt as fast tech (which helped me abit, because toss had to kill them before he could attack me, i harassed in different places of his bases, after they were down he attacked me with his 30stalker10zealots+some more units and he outnumbered me 2to1 but still i survived and won because after that he switched to air!!!!! and cariers are trash (good when u have a few of them, but to make that u need time, ididnt give him time)
okay now you are argueing that i did it because i know, that he attacks late? how should i know that????? i simple played a well knowen and often used strategie from scbw dt rush into nexus, the point here is that you have because of cronoboost so much more minerals i just build constantly out of one gate zealots and yes boy i could hold of a rush from 2gates with that, cronoboost works for unit production aswell, so one gate can do big things
anyway be happy with this comp and clain to have any clue about this game while u dont have, i dont care really
right now i very happy, i just got a beta key in this new key wave ;-) , so anyone who didnt check today his account should do , hope some more got it
gooooood luck anyone and enjoy the game
Quote from: greenbird on March 05, 2010, 04:42:34 AM
gg2 from your posting it's obvious you don't know what you are talking about.
A good terran player can kill a lurker with a single marine by abusing the cooldown timings for attack in sc1. Starcraft 1 AI would auto attack nearest threat which is why decent players can 'dance' units around people who didn't micro them at all. Agro the zealots with 1 ling then hit the furthest zealot with the other 5 and swap ling positions so they never get hit more than twice. Mainly because it takes 3 zealot hits to kill a ling. While 2 hits from 5lings kill a zealot. This is assuming you aren't playing a player but the computers default auto attack controls.
In starcraft 2 the dancing doesn't work effectively in that the unit will stop chasing and go back on the default path after a few seconds if it can't hit the unit.
Easiest way I found to defeat AI zealots is simply to constantly dance units while your defensive structure hits it. AI priortises units first so with 1-2 units keep moving back and forth while your range units/structure hits it. Requires careful micro or your units die pretty quickly. Can't do this vs any other units because lings are faster and rines have range. Killed the initial 10zealot rush with 4lings and 2sunks this way.
Claushouse with TVP either build a bunker at chokepoint with supply/rax and have 3-4 scvs repairing. Have a scout scv ahead so you know when he moves out, that's when you pull your scvs from base to repair. I usually have about 6 rines and my tank ends up popping during the battle.
BO is 9 rax 10upgraded CC and gas/supply depot 12 factory 14-16 supply depending on whether you want to wallblock using supply or bunker. Main thing in terran is to constantly use the mule, which is why rax before supply. A mule equals 6scvs. Pumping out rines meanwhile.
This works vs zerg/toss , but vs terran you need to cut down on minerals faster and have your gas out earlier so your tank comes out with SIEGE earlier. If you time it right, your tank gets siege just before they hit and with 8rines with 4 in a bunker you should barely win.
Toss is easiest to win with either 14nexus (expand) 15gate/forge and end up with 2-3zealots + 3cannons to win. Must stress the use of chronosphere, gotta keep spaming it on gateway or nexus to get your units out faster. 2-3zealots blocking a choke with cannon support pretty much forces AI to retreat. Or if you aren't good at expanding fast, gateway with 2-3zealots+2 sentry +2cannons pretty much wins as well. Another is fast dts, quick gas and don't build any defensive structure make late 2nd gateway and pump out 2dts and put them on hold on choke. Chronosphere boost on gateways so they come out just in time to block.
Zerg 14 2nd hatch14 pool by the time your pool finishes so should your 2nd hatch. Make sure 2nd hatch is built on choke point so you can create your defensive structures there. 2-3 sunkens(can make more if you feel you need to) +8lings +queen+drones if needed stops any rush.
Best things about my specific builds is that you aren't behind economically and you actually start matching the AIs resource pool once you hold off defending.
Terran has it easiest to win quickly, after the initial rush push out with 2tanks +12rines+4marauders +4scvs. Bunker down on his natural and GG.
You win with ez with protoss with zealots 2sentries and 2 collusus. Nothing the AI has at that point can stop it.
Zergs the only race you can't beat the AI within 20minutes , but pretty ez to win anyway.
Okay, I don't know what I'm talking about. Fine. But I would love to see you kill 4 of my zealots with 6 of your lings. Yeah, you can't. You're talking about COMP zealots. Anybody can do that, retard. And I never said anything about lurkers and marines. But I bet my lurks will own your sorry ass rines anyday if you think 1 marine by itself will do anything to a lurk. Where's your med? Your vessel? Heck, even your scan? Hell, why even morph a hydra into a lurk vs 1 marine. Do you get my point now? Shit looks good on paper but if you don't do it in a game, what's the point?
And why are you lecturing me about dancing? You can micro without dancing your units. You just said it.
You talk big man, even supporting your arguments with what you think is the only way something will work. Stop, please. If you want to prove a point, give us a link. A video please, of all your claims.
You know what? Why don't you give us all your bnet name for SC1 so we can play a match with you? Preferably on iccup. Come on. Give it.
Edit: After having finishing read your post, I remembered what your problem is. You play like you're playing against a comp. I've asked before, but why don't you play like you're playing against a real person? Let me guess, you're just going to go off on something about it being impossible to win because of not being able to dance and micro because SC2 is different, and the AI uses "sheer numbers" to win. Damn, you're ignorant. If you can't win, just say so. People have won, and without playing your "defensive" style. If you can't win without playing that way, don't be a dick and try to prove it to everyone that it's impossible and that we all are bullshitting you.
Why dont you guys relaxe a little?
There is no point in "Playing with the cheating AI like you would against a human player", simply because it is CHEATING, wich means that the AI will have MORE units then it is possible to build without cheating, so you NEED to abuse the fact, that the AI wont attack in the very first seconds/minutes of the game. You need to mine the ressources the AI already has (by cheating), that is why you can not win if you do something like a 9 pool because even if you survive the first attack you simply dont have the ressources to survive the second attack.
i played some zvt today and won them, but you can only win by beeing extremly abusive, just because the AI will not only have a massive first attack (esp. the one with the reapers is hard, since reapers rape zerglings) but it will tech ultra fast to 2-3 BattleCruisers and if you dont have enough Hydralsiks at that moment you will simply die.
So there is no point in "playing like against a human player" because guess what, the cheating AI CHEATS and you are already far behind if the game starts, so you need to make a good comeback and you can only do that by getting some ressources really fast.
ive always been a decent SC player but never PRO because for the life of me... I CAN NOT HOTKEY. haha my left hand sits over the arrows and i click click click click :D . force of habbit... very hard to break.
anyway even with my almost 0 mirco, this ai is still easy to beat, the first attack is the hardest to fend off (a horde of scvs has had to come to my aid a few times) but after that it is a cake walk. once you have a couple tanks the ai just gimps around. tech to thors for supporting marines and maraders (or fire cars, depending on what race) with medivacs and its good game. if it happens to go late game then just get vikings for added anti air, but most games will be done 14 - 20 mins depending on many many times that fucker slipps by you and makes another expansion!! I could even probably end games sooner, seeing as 90% of my army is still alive once im done lol. balls are just taking some time to drop i guess.
Im a noob so i only play terran, i HATE how the zerg play and toss... i dunno just dont like them either haha.
non the less the ai makes SC fun, cant wait for some multiplayer. Keep it up guys, i will probably keep using your ais even at release, im not much of a ladder player (i cant spend the time it takes to be THAT good) so vs comp games with my friends is a chilled thing to do after work
I have to say, its kinda hard to defend the first wave.
If you play terran and a map with tight entrance and high ground then sure np, personally in those situations i beat the PC 5/5.
First time i tried with protoss, actually it was the first time i tried the script, i got totally owned. Then i realised i need to block my entrance, 2 gateways and a pylon does the job, but still i get beaten sometimes like last time. When the PC attacked he had several zealots, three or four immortals and two freakin colossi versus mine 6-8 stalkers and a colossus. So i would say i have like 50-60% chance of victory.
With zerg i really have a hard time beating this, in fact i never have. Even if i manage to block the entrance i can't defend it, roaches have little range... if i go hydras, they are too few to do some real damage, so 0/5 is the case with zerg.
If anyone have defeated the script with zerg i would like to see a replay if possible :P
Quote from: manfredmustermann on March 05, 2010, 01:50:26 PM
Why dont you guys relaxe a little?
There is no point in "Playing with the cheating AI like you would against a human player", simply because it is CHEATING, wich means that the AI will have MORE units then it is possible to build without cheating, so you NEED to abuse the fact, that the AI wont attack in the very first seconds/minutes of the game. You need to mine the ressources the AI already has (by cheating), that is why you can not win if you do something like a 9 pool because even if you survive the first attack you simply dont have the ressources to survive the second attack.
i played some zvt today and won them, but you can only win by beeing extremly abusive, just because the AI will not only have a massive first attack (esp. the one with the reapers is hard, since reapers rape zerglings) but it will tech ultra fast to 2-3 BattleCruisers and if you dont have enough Hydralsiks at that moment you will simply die.
So there is no point in "playing like against a human player" because guess what, the cheating AI CHEATS and you are already far behind if the game starts, so you need to make a good comeback and you can only do that by getting some ressources really fast.
Actually, you CAN play against this AI like you're playing against a human player. Whether or not you win because of playing like that is the question. You can play and try to restrict your abuse on AI as much as possible. Everyone keeps saying you have to abuse the AI to win, well fine, but why not try to play and limit this abuse as much as possible? That is what I am trying to get at. Stop building defense structures, stop using easy exploits to the AI. Ultimately, if you think it's impossible, then that's you. I find it possible to win still, not always, but sometimes. Don't play to win, just play to challenge yourself.
gg2 you seriously are a nub.
You don't know what you are talking about once more.
Only the people with VERY GOOD MICRO can beat 5zealots with 6zerglings.
Lurker AI is uncontrollable it auto attacks the nearest target(not talking about lurker hold trick).
Marine Vs Lurker (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIKXBQ0VT-A#)
Best Marine micro ever!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZNdaEM9SfI&feature=related#)
This is in actual "Pro game".
Everyone plz ignore gg2 he is a nub who thinks playing vs AI equates to skill vs other players.
GG2 you are full of shit again. Post me one NORMAL BO that someone has done that won vs this AI. A normal BO is if you are PVP and you see him build 2gateways you making 2 gateways. If you see him get 6pool in ZVZ you are also going to go 6pool. Your posts are so stupid.
As the only person who knows what he is talking about manfredmusterman said, you can't play "normally" vs someone who starts off with 1000 more minerals at start.
If you played a person and they built pool with their 6th drone what would be the normal response by players. You'd build rax/gateway/pool straight away, You'd start pumping units.
Guess what? This response loses you the game.
Everyone ignore gg.sc2 he is full of it.