DarkBlizz

Quote from: dodongbadong on March 03, 2010, 08:11:48 PM
how long will it still take to emulate the server? im getting bored playing ai 

and worst part cant view replays anymore since the newest patch huhuhu.. even P2Ai cant view it anymore wont log on recent folder 

i just really hope that the rumors about the 2nd wave is true and hope to have a beta key then and definitely going to share it to you guys and prayed emulation successful

Did you even read any of the other posts??

Very specific micro and counter functions will likely take a couple of more versions, I'm not part of the team myself.  I have been watching progress from the beginning, and let me say that v6 is a very important and very big step in the right direction.


Blizz isn't a stupid company and they clearly knew that the minute SC2 beta hit the web, the crackers would get to work.  Also since its intended to test multiplayer content they want to discourage players with beta keys from facing AI.  Best way to do that?  Squash the AI, and make it fail.


A complete re-write of the entire AI is the only way to get what we want because Blizzard did not include full AI, also they likely have not even completed it fully, and are waiting to see what strategy develops in beta, and incorporate that into AI.


It will take several more versions to perfect the AI, but the devs are making very fast progress, so everyone keep your pants on.

Well the other thing is you have to know they are going to have a near unbeatable attack at about 8 minutes in, so you need to build strictly defense until that happens. 


For Terran 3-4 tanks is going to take out pretty much anything they throw at you until they get air. 


Zerg will probably have the hardest time beating this, and I've not tried with Zerg so I can't say for sure. 


For Protoss what I did to stop the attack was build a gateway and a pylon at the only choke point in my base, put cannons on the cliff faces, and by the time they attacked had 6-8 stalkers, drop expanded, got void rays and phoenix(es?) not sure the plural on that, walked into his base. 


I'm sure it would seem nearly impossible for many people and for a lot it is, but its mostly experience.  SC 1 I would do 8 player Melee 7 comps vs me, to practice my defense and fast macro, so I'm used to it.


The AI is still very much a work in progress eventually the goal I assume is to have 5 or so difficulty levels so that brand new RTS players, and original SC players who have been waiting 12 years alike can enjoy playing vs AI.

Stomped the cheating version as Protoss, didn't try with Zerg, Terran I had to wall-in but wasn't too troubled at all.

Still very beatable, at least for me, of course to expect an AI to ever give an experienced SC (and RTS in general) player like me any real trouble is basically unheard.  For casual players I'm even v5.5 without cheating is a challenge.  Probly should look into difficulty levels at this point.

Atleast unlike alot of developers Blizzard is good about patching out hacks ASAP, after the first few months all the hacks in WC3 were gone, and any that popped up there after were squashed - fast.

Actually SC2 will have LAN support, however it will require B.net connectivity to enable.  When you host a game it will automatically default to LAN once it detects that both people are on a LAN.  This is gonna suck in the rare times where a LAN doesn't have a net connection.

For me I'll either buy a beta key and get Digital copy, if i don't buy a key i'll get collectors edition.

What to mass to make sure you always beat the computers in every battle is pretty simple.

Terran - Vikings
Protoss - Void Rays
Zerg - Mutalisks


Build order at the very start is easy.
-Max worker pop (10 for zerg and toss, 11 for terran)
-2X depots, pylons, or overlords
-2X production building
-2X food
-keep making food as needed
-20-25 works on minerals per base, 4 per vespene geyser
-Pump units as often as money allows until you win if you want to stick low tier




-I expand when I want to start teching, in order to keep production up while you tech
-Tech what you need to win (see above)


Happy pwning!


-Elvish

Quote from: rackdude on March 02, 2010, 05:05:23 PM

Quote from: Happy-I-am on March 02, 2010, 04:49:39 PM

Quote from: Kiamberm on March 02, 2010, 04:45:47 PM
Can anyone give me some tips? I'm using v3 AI because that's the easiest I could find, but I still get owned. I just can't seem to get units out as fast as the AI can. :/ you guys complain that the AI is to easy, and yet I can't even win 1 match against version 3

Can someone please give me some advice/tips?

have 10 workers getting minerals, have one working build 2 pop increasing buildings(overseer for zerg) then build a unit building building, train units and expand resources etc.

10 workers? Sigh... Ok, go on TeamLiquid.net and watch the Day[9] daily. It's Tasteless's bro and he knows what he's talking about. Also watch some Artosis and David Kim vods, you'll know what to do.


The optimal worker count has been measured to be 24, but you should get more than that for maynarding purposes. Which means just as before, constant probes (but now with chrono).




Please make these AI MUCH harder. I'm only a D/D+ on ICCUP and I can take down these 1v3 no problem. I wonder what someone who isn't a noob could do to these AI...



If you still cannot win after reading up all of Liquipedia about general starcraft play and learning everything from Day[9] (and also playing ICCUP until your APM is at least 100 so you can actually build stuff...), then just 15nex. It should work on the computers quite easily. If you're too scared of that, try a 10/15 gate into 18 FE. I found that gives a safe expand with 3 zealots.

I agree, I'm far from a pro but I dominate this AI in short order, if I actually try to win I end a 1v3 in about 12 minutes.  The rule of thumb I've always used is Vespene - FOUR workers, if you watch closely a fresh worker waits half a second before going inside, and therefore a probe is always en-route with 8 gas.  Minerals, I've always made 2 workers per mineral patch, plus an extra 5.  Which with 9 patches (the standard amount) is 23, so the 24 optimal number mathematically makes sense.


Another tip, make sure you are always about 20 pop ahead of what you need, because you'll eat it up quick.


-Elvish

Personally I believe there is a time and a place for Fastest possible maps.  In my case after 4-5 hours of playing ladder, I would get bored of competitive play, and (provided I wanted to play more SC on that day) would move on to fastest possible.  Mostly what I would do in those cases is just mess around have fun, and take a break from serious micro and really focusing on a win.  Also its a great place to try new build orders and such.


Also I'm sure it will be only a few weeks after release of retail until the modders get the Galaxy editor cracked to shit, and then will be able to do whatever they want. 


As stated prior however, the game system will work like WarCraft III, you can play whatever modded map you like in a Custom Game, but if you go to Matchmaking or Arranged Team (only two methods to get wins on your profile), you can only play maps selected by Blizzard.

@ScubaSteve3465 - As stated below, Blizzard included only a very streamlined (in other words moronic) AI - this is for obvious reasons because this Beta is meant to test solely the online play, and to make it as balanced as possible for retail.  Eventually we may see this fixed with cracked AI, but it will take a long time for the devs to build up the command lists that Blizzard has not included in the Beta release.


On AI:


First of all I'd like to say that v5.5 is leaps and bounds above v5.1 - that said the AI still has its problems, but progress is definitely being made.


Zerg:


Zerg AI has a massive (30 or so) Zergling attack at 6 minutes, and at 10-12 minutes it returns with as many Zerglings, and about 20 roaches in support.  Roughly 15 minutes in it returns with 40 Zerglings, 25 Roaches, a handful of hydras, couple of infestors.


Mid to late game the Zerg AI really falls apart, it keeps pumping the same army it has all game, and once in a while I saw it add in a few Mutalisk/Ultralisks.  Still no counters, but I understand that you guys have to rebuild to unit-state system from scratch, so I'll just sum up what the AI should do.  As Terran I did a standard bunker/depot wall-in and then teched to Battlecruisers.  The AI did not make any mutalisks or corrupters to counter my Cruisers.  It also did not use Overlords to by-pass my wall-in.  It would also send continual waves of roaches right at my wall-in to get eaten by tanks.


At about 15 minutes the Zerg AI should stop with Tier 1 all-together, it's army needs to start consisting of Hydralisks, Mutalisks, Corrupters/Brood Lords, and eventually Mutalisks - infestors can stay too.  Zerg is still the best of the three, but overall it needs to ALWAYS play like Zerg - strength in numbers. Up until 15 minutes in the AI has this down perfectly,  the area of focus next should be to improve its transition to late game, as its late is probably the worst of the three.


Terran:


Terran plays almost exactly the same as v5.1 the only difference is it stopped massing Helions, unfortunately it went a step further and doesn't make any at all anymore.  I still saw tanks, and the AI is now using them in siege mode in battles.


Add Ravens - Ravens are very important for Terran - especially for defending expansions and harassing expansions.  Thors! - Need to see the AI getting a few of these, massing them generally isn't a good idea however. Reapers - AI should get Reapers vs toss. Medevacs - these are very crucial to keeping terran troops alive.  Helions - bring them back, just don't let the AI mass them. (Mid game should be helions/marauders/still some marines/medevacs, Banshees.  Late should be missile-upgraded Ravens, Thors, Tanks, Battlecruisers, Vikings (both modes)).


Protoss:


Protoss AI still has an abysmal early game,  I was going double gateway expansion to tech, and after 10 minutes I still had many more troops than it.  Would really like to see that early rush/push that the Zerg and Terran AIs have.  Stalkers were used, but not massed to a nearly sufficient degree.


I never saw any Immortals, they are really bread and butter of a protoss army in SC2, just like Reavers in BW.  Collosi never came out, had the AI got these it probably would have beaten my zealot/stalker/immortal push.  Late game the AI gets ONLY carriers and Archons, need to have some better variety here.  Protoss definitely has the strongest late game, just bring their middle, but especially early game up and it could easily be the best of the 3.


Overall:


Protoss has the best late game.  Zerg has the best early game.  Terran at the moment seems best middle game.  Terran has a decent early game, but doesn't push its advantage when it can easily win, instead waiting for its mid-game push.  Battlecruisers late is pretty much the only option for Terrans, but it takes the AI far too long to get there (25 minutes before I saw a good number).


Keep it up! We'll have this AI perfected soon enough at the rate progress is going.


-Elvish

There is already a topic for discussing the AI version in the AI Scripts forum.  Its the official StarCrack thread.  Just a heads up for anyone who didn't kno.

I'm probably e-baying a cd-key, game is too fucking good to wait another 6 months to play. Not to mention the fact that when retail comes those who played the beta will be far better than everyone else.


In regards to playing without a key, I think lan matches are only a month or so out, but actually playing on bnet, I do not believe we'll ever see this, even once retail is out.

I'm still doing my analysis of v5.5 but for the most part everything I noticed about this version has already been mentioned.  Build order timing is great now, expanding is appropriate, now we need to focus on bringing up AI micro, counters, and proper defense methods - with that done then we'll really have some challenging AI.  Can't wait for the new versions. 


On another note - I think it should be made clear by someone that Blizzard DID_NOT include the full list of AI functions and commands, as such it will take a considerably amount of time for the devs to rebuild the list from scratch.  Because of this it will take considerably longer to eliminate some parts of AI behavior - such as the running back and forth we'v all seen.  Fixing that will take much longer than forcing them AI to build X unit at X time, because Blizzard did not include a proper function for big AI army control.


To the Devs:  I am going to be purchasing a SC2 Beta Key on e-bay in the next couple of weeks, and once I do I will promptly provide some Wireshark captures of logins + play - I can't give a definitive ETA as the Beta key (assuming I win the auction) will be a birthday gift.


-Elvish