StarCrack AI Official 6.0 Feedback Thread

[Organized_Chaos]

suggestion: try not walling against a comp? 

I was just doing what I normally do in a real game. Don't really find it purposeful to deviate from it when playing against the computer. I play the AI with the goal of practicing for 1v1.

Another Suggestion

I don't know if its possible but maybe make the computer consider dropping or air attacks when the direct route is blocked?

Guys, this goes for everyone - if you're walling in ANY way vs the AI, you're really not that good, and are complaining for no reason.  An SCV wall at the ramp with rines behind them isn't even acceptable vs an AI IMO, but a depot wall?  lol!  This isn't some advanced AI from 2020...even 6.0 is the most basic scripted AI you can get, hence it won't know how to react when something is blocking its path to the enemy. 

Basically you should always refrain from doing any tricks vs the AI, i.e. depot walls, SCV walls, cannon rush, back door warp prism, back door nydus, etc. because it's essentially cheating if it's against an opponent that doesn't know how to react.  Get it? 

The pros wall in because they're playing against other human players!  It stops those early ling/zealot rushes, but we can easily adapt to it when we're going up against it by seiging w/slow roll, or very simply not trying to break the wall when we know it's not possible to break.

I just played a TvZ and didn't wall in at all, and even that wasn't challenging (for me).  It came at me pretty late-early game with like 15-20 lings, but I micro'd my rines at the ramp and slaughtered them. 

Moral of the story: stop walling in and doing cheap shit vs the AI if you want a challenge.  If you're above average at all, then it won't really be a challenge no matter what you do.  Mid game I had 2 expansions, 6 tanks, ~40 rines, ~20 marauders, 5 medivacs, and 3 ravens.  They had no chance.

[Organized_Chaos]

And one more thing... if you want any kind of useful practice for playing against other humans, then go vs an AI that harasses a lot, like AMAI.  It at least keeps you on your toes...

[pixartist]

suggestion: try not walling against a comp? 

I was just doing what I normally do in a real game. Don't really find it purposeful to deviate from it when playing against the computer. I play the AI with the goal of practicing for 1v1.

Another Suggestion

I don't know if its possible but maybe make the computer consider dropping or air attacks when the direct route is blocked?

Guys, this goes for everyone - if you're walling in ANY way vs the AI, you're really not that good, and are complaining for no reason.  An SCV wall at the ramp with rines behind them isn't even acceptable vs an AI IMO, but a depot wall?  lol!  This isn't some advanced AI from 2020...even 6.0 is the most basic scripted AI you can get, hence it won't know how to react when something is blocking its path to the enemy.  

Basically you should always refrain from doing any tricks vs the AI, i.e. depot walls, SCV walls, cannon rush, back door warp prism, back door nydus, etc. because it's essentially cheating if it's against an opponent that doesn't know how to react.  Get it? 

The pros wall in because they're playing against other human players!  It stops those early ling/zealot rushes, but we can easily adapt to it when we're going up against it by seiging w/slow roll, or very simply not trying to break the wall when we know it's not possible to break.

I just played a TvZ and didn't wall in at all, and even that wasn't challenging (for me).  It came at me pretty late-early game with like 15-20 lings, but I micro'd my rines at the ramp and slaughtered them.  

Moral of the story: stop walling in and doing cheap shit vs the AI if you want a challenge.  If you're above average at all, then it won't really be a challenge no matter what you do.  Mid game I had 2 expansions, 6 tanks, ~40 rines, ~20 marauders, 5 medivacs, and 3 ravens.  They had no chance.

dude it's not "something" that blocks the AI to get into the enemy base, it's the ENEMY, also, those things are not "tricks", what you are suggesting is, that we should play exactly LIKE the AI....

[turdburgler]

It's like the devs struggled to make the AI so easy

Thanks, that's exactly what I was doing until 4:30am last night. Struggling to make the AI easy.

If you had a particularily bad game, give it another try, you might just have gotten a poor variation. Apart from that, if you're good at this game, it's not going to give you much of a challenge. Starcraft 1 AI never gave me a challenge and they had a few years on that. C&C Generals AI got faceraped by me every time and they had millions of dollars and years to work on the game.

tl;dr stop whining

[canman]

Hey - signed up for an account just to tell you how grateful I am that you spent time building this AI and improving it. I once competed in an AI programming competition and, even after a month, everybody's bots still acted pretty stupid. I'm amazed at what you've accomplished in a week.

Anyway, for all of us who haven't been lucky enough to get a beta key, thanks for your hard work.

[dantemp]

Thanks, that's exactly what I was doing until 4:30am last night. Struggling to make the AI easy.
.....

tl;dr stop whining

Ok man, don't get us wrong. We absolutely love your job on this, but you set the bar so high yourself with the fast first AI's and some of us were expecting more. Anyway, I have only one question and will repeate it, hopefully this time I'll get na answer.
Is it POSSIBLE to make the AI counter the enemy's production. For example, If I play against protos and go all Mutalisks, he counters with Phoenixs? It would be so cool if you manage that!

[bullet_magnet]

Hi,

I also signed just to tell you a thanks for all your great effort. Don't get discouraged by negative criticism.

It's like the devs struggled to make the AI so easy

Thanks, that's exactly what I was doing until 4:30am last night. Struggling to make the AI easy.

If you had a particularily bad game, give it another try, you might just have gotten a poor variation. Apart from that, if you're good at this game, it's not going to give you much of a challenge. Starcraft 1 AI never gave me a challenge and they had a few years on that. C&C Generals AI got faceraped by me every time and they had millions of dollars and years to work on the game.

tl;dr stop whining

[newbiz]

Some random feelings about the 6.0:


Problems to solve:


- Still not a real challenge for an average RTS player. Even the cheating one.


- (Minor) Zergs don't use creep tumors, so their colonies are stacked randomly between buildings, where there is enough creep.


- No adaptability, the AI will send waves after waves of ground units where it is obvious that there is no possibility to kill those tanks.


- (Minor) No real micro management. You can kite almost anything if you have a reaper/viking/stalker/colossus, just by going back and forth over gaps or walls.


- (Minor) AI does not consume its resources as it should, that's why the cheating AI is not really better than the standard one.


- (Minor) AI won't react to any exotic strategy (but that's not really a problem)


- (Major) The AI won't enclose you. It sends waves of units, but from its camp to yours. Instead, the AI should stack its units near you base entrance, out of range, so that you cannot get out to create expansions. (SC1 AI did that).


- (Major) AI does not group units wisely. They should combine antiair and antiground units. But most of the time, a wave consist of onlyground or onlyair.


- (Major) AI does not check for expansion often enough. In SC1, the AI was able to burrow for instance 1 zergling near each mineral group, so that when you come with a drone to create an expansion, the AI knows, and the zergling kills the drone (or stay burrowed and a wave is sent to the expansion)


- (Major) AI does not protect its bases. I mean, all its army is stacked for an attack wave, and they have to come back if the base is attacked. They should reserve some units to stay at the base to defend until the real army can come to the rescue.


- (Minor) Terrain buildings should lift off when ground attacked.

Nice things from 5.5:


- AI will expand to places only reachable by transpots. Nice!


- More units are using their special abilities (HT & co).


To those who have problems defeating the AI:


Standard - Protoss: Create some zealots and as soon as possible immortals. Wait for the first rush (you should have ~6 zealots ~3 immortals) send zealots while you kite them with immortals. Then strike back while producing more and more immortals. You should defeat them easily.


Standard - Terran: Block you entrance with 2 supplies and 1 barrack. Create a bunker with 4 marines and as soon as possible tanks. During the rush, just keep reparing supplies & bunker. Strike back with tanks & vikings.


Standard - Zergs: Create mass zerglings, and roach as soon as possible. You should resist quite well to the first rush by kiting them with roaches while zerglings mess him (same thing with zealots/immortals). Strike back by transforming zerglings to bannelings and burrow them in his expansions. You should be able to destruct him with your bannelings and mass roaches.


Cheating: Roughly the same stategy than with the standard AI, except that you should create a massive defense (tons of tanks (+some vikings for anti air&rush)/ roaches(+some hydras for anti air) / immortals (+phoenix for anti air). Once you base camp is protected enough (i.e. you don't even need to micro when a wave arrive), begin to create all possible expansions. If an expansion is attacked, just rush the AI, it will back to protect it.



Hope it helped.
Keep up the good work, the AI gets better & better at each release

[bustya]

I liked 5.5 better than 6.0.

TvP they zealot rushed me, broke through my wall, but then retreated while i had no troops at all. Then they massed battle carriers and crushed me.

5.5 was way better IMO, although 6.0 does build base defences.

[Nipels]

Hey, just signed up to let you know how badass of a creation you got going here. Don't let these haters get you down. You are doing great work.

Now for all of you people out there crying about how "Wahhhhhh It's not a challenge?!?!?!" Of course it isn't. Anyone with a brain is automatically better than an AI, because brains can adapt. If it is so easy, try handicapping yourself on purpose. Obviously, don't wall in. Don't build any static defenses. Try different off-the-wall strategies. Only allow yourself 10 SCVs/Probes/Drones per expansion. If 10 is too many, try 9. I know when I go all out against a computer, I end up with 14k Minerals and being maxed out a few minutes into the game. That isn't fun.

Try beating the comp without going over 100 PSI. If that is too easy, than 80PSI. Make it challenging yourself.

Already said that in the 3rd page of this topic,the AI sucks bad because it's so easy,killed 30 zealots with 6 roaches...no need for more examples.It's like the devs struggled to make the AI so easy,made excelent work with 5.5,dunno why this turned out to be so bad

This new AI is a lot more versatile. It tries new build orders and strategies. So what if it doesn't break down 15 minutes in and only send Carriers at you? The bottom line is your criticism is bull shit. You offer no ways for him to improve it, and honestly, I wish you weren't allowed to download from this site. These Devs have no obligation to you. Your ungrateful ass should be banned for biting the hand that feeds.


My only request from the Devs is an "Insane" cheating version. One that is almost impossible to win. The idea being to see how long you can last.

[marSz]

Hi,

I also signed just to tell you a thanks for all your great effort. Don't get discouraged by negative criticism.

Same here, ur doing a good job keep it up!

[mx420]

great ai,  everyone who is sayin "play this like you would play against a human opponent, is an idiot. by doing that you are abusing the ai,  not the other way around.  lol  you think a human player is gona let you kite them like this ai does?  give me a break.

i usualy wall with depots, again, this isnt sc1 and the reason the depots go underground, IS SO YOU CAN DO JUST THAT... WALL!.  the ai doesnt run around infront like they did in sc1, they attack the depots right away and push thru fast. I had a game where the toss started to run away even once they owned everyone, minus a marauder... i was able to kite them long enough to get my army back up.... ya playing like it was a human  makes it easier, LOL to you ppl thinking you are pros for doing that.

my T strat is to build my defense INFRONT of my first expansion, so there is no problem getting to it later, so its not like im walling a ramp, more like an area 3 - 4 depos wide. Ive played 4 games, first two games i got rocked by the toss (i play terran) so i was learning a new build, definetly can not tech when facing the cheating ai haha. 3rd game was vs T, which i won pretty easy, held off their first attack and had enough left over i just went into their base and killed them,  short game. 

4th game i finaly got my rematch with the toss. came at me with his 20 some zealots and as i explained above, was able to kite them (like a "pro" haha) until i had enough to finsihed them off. Kept massing  marines, marauders, medivacs and fire cars. their 2nd attack game with zealots, dragoon replacments, and immortals. i had so much ter 1 i raped these, then continued into there base with a thor as support, and took them out.

for an AI this is pretty damn good, cant wait till the small things are worked out.  gj turd! anyone trashing this ai just needs to get a life, dont listen to them .


o and btw, im talking about the cheating version

[undeadnightorc]

Can't believe the nerve of some people to complain about something that is essentially free. Just be glad to actually be playing sc2 in any form, people!

I'm quite happy with the latest AI version.  I play random (no choice cuz I go with whatever the map gives at the start lol), so my experience with AI matchups changes from game to game. Some games were notoriously easy, others were unexpectedly hard. Either way I'm getting trained in SC2 and familiarizing myself with the units and hotkeys and stuff, so big win!

[RoarMan]

Pros:
-The varying amount of builds is interesting to play against.
- I love the fact that the Ai are using Psionic Storm and such, that's a big plus in my book
- Ai going for Island Expansions is great


Cons:
- The Ai doesn't seem to be countering properly, just follows whatever build orders
- The Ai seems to build A LOT of workers early games. I was playing against the Zerg Ai, I had just wiped out about 20 of it's zerglings and I decided to wait to see if it would try to build up more fighting forces. After about two minutes and proceeded to attack, and found that the Ai seemed to have like 30+ drones on Minerals alone, but he did not pump out any fighters.
- As mentioned before, the Ai don't seem to scout and hunt expos early enough
- The Ai doesn't seem to put much pressure or harass (Although they seem to be doing it a bit more than 5.5) as I'd like to see.
-The Ai should get upgrades, they're pretty crucial in Sc2 and by late game my upgraded army would just smash the Ai's ungraded one. (I mean the + damage and + armor upgrades)


Although it doesn't seem much harder than 5.5, it's fun to fight against a variation of builds and great to see the Ai progress. Ily guys for the work on the Ai!

[vitalsine]

Gotta run for a bit, but I cant wait to give this a shot. Good work Turd!